The God Particle
Back in December, 2008, I wrote a post called In the Beginning that discussed Creationism versus the Big Bang theory. The conclusion was, predictably, that Creation made more sense and besides, was a lot simpler. In that discussion, I described in some detail the Large Hadron Collider, a $9 billion monstrosity buried underground near the border between France and Switzerland. I won't repeat all that here. (If you're curious, check my archives for 18 December 2008.) Simply, the LHC was an attempt to "find" someting called the Higgs bosun, a subatomic particle that was supposed to explain mass and gravity, the rocks upon which various theories of the universe, specifically string theory, crash.
Mass, which begets gravitational attraction, is what essentially holds everything together, including atoms. It is the glue of the universe. For years it defied mathematical modeling. Then an English physicist, Peter Ware Higgs, in a flash of insight, imagined a new and unknown sub-atomic particle that "creates" mass, which in a fit of hubris he named the Higgs bosun, after himself. (Paradixically, a bosun itself is a massless particle.) The scientific world rejoiced and ran off hell-bent to discover this wondrous particle. The thought was that its existence heretofore had eluded researchers because they didn't smash atomic particles--specifically protons that are relatively easy to get and work with--hard enough, i.e. with sufficient energy. Hence the LHC that accelerates protons to 99.9% of the speed of light before colliding them.
Well, rejoice all you anti-creationists out there, according to a recent newspaper article, after 10 years of banging protons together, they have--"Eureka!"--found it. (If you read my 2008 post, you will note that I predicted that they would find it, because they had to.) Actually, they have found "indications" of its existence, whatever that means. The skeptics among you may quite understandably ask, "So what?" Good question. Let me tell you "what" from my perspective--full disclosure--as a practicing Christian.
Man is a proud and arrogant creature. Those characteristics are arguably at the root of most of our troubles, especially our interminable wars. Part of that arrogance is an aversion to acknowledging a being superior to ourselves. Thus, when Darwin published his Origin of Species the humanists jumped at it. From the Darwinian concept which required very long periods of time came the concept of the great age of the Earth and universe--billions of years. Up until that time, the Biblical age of the Earth, around 15 thousand years give or take, had been the accepted belief.
That opened up a raft of possibilities, leading eventually to the present "Big Bang Theory" (not the TV show!). Grossly oversimplified, the explosion of a tiny dot of infinite mass created gobs of vibrating strings, bidimensional membranes and 11 or so dimensions of which everything is made, along with time so you can't ask where that dot came from. This is in a nutshell "String Theory", or its latest incarnation, "The Theory of Everything." (You can't make this stuff up!) Problem was, all these vibrating strings and membranes didn't have any mass, and obviously, mass and its handmaiden gravity exist. Consequently, there was still a tiny opening for God.
However, the Higgs bosun, which someone perhaps facetiously nicknamed the "God Particle," a name that stuck, allows man to eliminate God from the picture. We don't need Him to explain the existence of everything. Man's arrogance is justified; he is indeed the eagle at the top of the totem pole.
I don't mean to imply that all scientists are atheists. Some ideas or beliefs tend to take on a life of their own. Great effort and resources have been expended to explain the world around us. We are able to function with the incompatible ambivalence of religious belief and science by conveniently stuffing religion into one hour on Sunday morning, or perhaps Saturday evening, and dedicating the rest of the week to science. This I call "magical thinking," for magical indeed it is.
So, how do I, the practicing 24-7 Christian, explain the "indicated" Higgs bosun? This takes a bit of credulity, but then that's what we mostly are talking about. Centuries ago, Galileo undertook to measure the diameter of the Earth. He made some instruments and used them to measure the height of a distant tower. By that means he came up with an expression for the curvature of the Earth and extrapolated that to its diameter. He was close, but not real close.
More recently, around 75 years ago. some college researchers undertook to duplicate Galileo's measurements. They faithfully reproduced his instrumentation from detailed descriptions and notes and replicated the experiment. Guess what. The result was extremely accurate, much more accurate than Galileo's figure. If we assume that he was not a klutz or a graduate of MPS, then why didn't he come up with a more accurate figure? Well, because our college students knew the answer beforehand. In other words, what we know or believe, or desperately desire to find, can influence the results of our research. You scoff, but I have seen personal evidence of this phenomenon.
Much of science today is concerned with various studies affecting the public. These studies are funded through grants from agents with an agenda. In other words, they have a preconceived idea of what they want the research to conclude. Thus, all smoking-related studies conclude that it is a terrible health hazard, including "second-hand" smoke. All coronary artery disease studies verify that cholesterol is the villian. All global warming studies conclude it is anthropomorphic (man-made). And the list goes on. Never is heard a dissenting word. The result is the corruption of true science by grant.
With respect to the God particle, recall that it is allegedly a sub-atomic particle, i.e. the result of breaking apart an atom. Consequently, it is invisible. Sub-atomic particles are usually detected indirectly by electric charge effects or collisions with other particles. No one will ever "see" the God particle. It will be identified by indirect means. I think that if 500 PhD's focus their minds on a single idea, they could move a mountain to say nothing of finding a sub-microscopic entity. As I said before, they will find it because they must. There is too much at stake.
This entire structure of the cosmos, strings, membranes, dimensions, Big Bang and Creation-without-God depends on this little fellow whom no one has seen or ever will see.
My attitude towards all this is based on plausibility. I find the theories of Big Bang and evolution to be implausible. Ask the DNA molecule that formed you or the developing baby in the womb, incredibly complex and precisely configured processes, whether they happened by accident. The wonderfully balanced world of nature defies definition due to its intricacy. The evidence of design, absolutely brilliant and--yes--miraculous design, is to me unmistakeable.
So, have your Bang, your strings, your God particle and your random mutations. I'll take Genesis.
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92 Comments
Carl Hicks - Jul 20, 2012 1:24 AM
Human Ape - Jul 20, 2012 6:25 AM
people like you?
http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com/
Human Ape - Jul 20, 2012 6:28 AM
unmistakeable."
If you were an honest person you wouldn't use code words like design for your
childish fantasies.
This is what you really mean:
The evidence of MAGIC, absolutely brilliant and--yes--miraculous MAGIC, is to me
unmistakeable.
You have a childish belief in magic. Have you ever considered the advantages of
growing up, educating yourself, and facing facts? Or are you too cowardly to grow
up?
http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com/
Human Ape - Jul 20, 2012 6:34 AM
As did every single 21st century scientist on this entire planet.
Evolution is a bloody fact mister. It's a basic fact of science.
Evolution has evidence, tons of it, more powerful than Darwin could have
imagined possible.
Your total ignorance of science makes you unqualified to write about it. But you
show off your breathtaking insanity anyway.
I suggest you should either grow up or shut up.
http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com/
Human Ape - Jul 20, 2012 6:37 AM
brilliant. Something that cannot be said of present day creationists."
Of course creationists are not brilliant. They are the exact opposite of brilliant.
They're uneducated and they're just plain stupid.
http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com/
Human Ape - Jul 20, 2012 6:42 AM
An extremely small minority of scientists share your god disease, but not one of
them is an evolution denier like you are. Even the rare religious scientists have
complete contempt for know-nothing fools like yourself. You are a laughing stock and
you disgrace my country.
bamaphd - Jul 20, 2012 7:19 AM
"So, have your Bang, your strings, your God particle and your random mutations. I'll take Genesis."
Well, the random mutations are there Al. Consider Children who have Cystic Fibrosis. the condition is passed down genetically within a gene pool of carriers.
Now if God created Adam and Eve in his image and likeness, then either God is sick with a huge number of disorders that he/she decided to pass on to humanity, possible so he/she would not suffer alone; or God is imperfect and cruel and he/she simply created humans so he could see them suffer from birth.
The mutations we have created ourselves can best be seen in the world of dogs. We have bred so many breeds that never existed over such a short period of time that it is plain as day that evolution, working over a 3 billion year time frame would have had ample time to change and alter any living organism.
bamaphd - Jul 20, 2012 7:20 AM
Creation stories are comfortable for minds that never question and never learn beyond subsistence. While it may be factual that some of the persons that told the myths existed, it does not mean the myths are true: it only means that at some point the myth was recorded as part of a historical anthology.
It always struck me as weird that there is no mathematics or geometry explicitly set out in the bible. There is no absolute set of initial formulas given to the prophets. At the same time, there are strict guidelines for lifestyle and for worship, and yet nothing is said about those things that are scientific.
Every child from an early ages asks "why am I here?" regardless of the religion or ethos of their parents. What we do with that question, if we leave doors open to exploration or we shut them to pay tribute to dogma, forms the child as much as anything else.
There are those who say Stephen Hawking is in his present condition because God is punishing him for his heresy . And yet Einstein and Newton were never punished at all, while Galileo was punished by men who's dogma was threatened by his observations and not by a bolt from the sky.
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 9:38 AM
And the proudest and most arrogant are those that think the entire universe was created for their bennefit.
"... the Higgs bosun, ...allows man to eliminate God from the picture."
Even speaking as an atheist, thats not true. Please explin to me how Evolution or the Standard Model (that predicted the Higgs) somehow discount a supernatural creator. Please.
So now we have (it appears) the Higgs which impart mass via a field. Not terribly unlike how other subatomics impart electric charge via a field.
So my question is, Al, Do you think the existance of the electron allows man to eliminate God from the picture?? Do you even believe that there are subatomics that impart electric charge??
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 9:42 AM
Thats nonsense. If the data matches a hypothesis, it advances knowledge and they have a publishble paper. If the data doesnt matches a hypothesis, it advances knowledge and they REALLY have a publishble paper, 'cause now they have to look for a new hypothesis.
WFB resident - Jul 20, 2012 10:50 AM
dullards (PDLS's) who swore that the correct view point was that Man made
products made Global Warming !. Remember ? To this day the slowest of them still
believe . Many in the Science community have made an about face on this issue
publicly . But the PDLS (smart people ) are ready and willing to mock and attack
anyone who disagrees with them (look above) ! So to keep getting paid and keep
their new clothes (king and his clothes) They turn a blind eye towards actual facts .
So as the Nazis and other socialists have done for years . They attack and assume
superiority !! Thus proving to themselves that they are correct(PDLS's) . As for
inbreeding ,Carl is partially correct . Somehow god made it possible that only PDLS's
seem to have been affected by its problems . lol...
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 11:12 AM
"Many in the Science community have made an about face on this issue
publicly ."
Care to actually identify any?
Mucho - Jul 20, 2012 3:15 PM
Creationists use the Bible as a template. The Evolutionists "bible" is about as long, full of gigantic gaps and is nowhere near as clear as the real Bible about what happened in "The Beginning". Regardless, Creationists are content that their theory is proven "scientific" fact despite its need to be accepted on sheer faith.
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 3:39 PM
Bzzzzt... Sorry but thanks for playing. If you mean "religion" as something requiring faith because theres no direct evidence, then evolution is as much a religion as automechanics is. No faith is required. There are TONS of things (fossil discoveries, observed mutations) that would blow away evolution as false in an instant. None have been revealed. Everybody's been looking (instant fame & fortune!).
If your insist on using the bible as a template for everything, then you end up with the laughable science shows you'll see on WVCY where you end up with what Al described as the conclusions being predetermined.
That isnt science.
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 4:26 PM
Well.... he DID say it was the simplest explaination.
Mucho - Jul 20, 2012 5:17 PM
there is no need for faith. " georgedub
That is my point. Some believe evolution is fact - some invest their lives trying to prove it is. That is called faith.
Those who speak of Creationism as "magic", myth or a child's story seem so blindly willing to accept the "mythical" transitionary species and "magical" genetic mutations that create them while they look wide eyed at gigantic fabrications of painted fiberglass dinosaurs constructed from a handful of bones at museums. They are so desperate to prove their fairy tales that they invest billions of dollars and millions of dollars in underground laboratories to dicover "trace" cluse of sub atomic particles to provide one of a million missing pieces to their Evolution fantasy puzzle.
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 6:13 PM
There. I fixed that sentence for you. You're welcome.
Theres nothing magical or mythical about transitionary species or genetic mutations. They have been studied to the point that testable predictions have been made based on our understanding, experiments have been done, and non-falisying results have been observed. No religion can claim that.
I hate to break it to you, but neither the Standard Model (higgs) nor the Big Bang have anything to do with evolution.
Al hasnt answered my 9:38am questions, yet. Care to take a shot at them, Mucho (or anyone)?
jman99 - Jul 20, 2012 7:00 PM
No, that's call diligence. They don't "need" to believe in evolution in order to gain grace or manna or to get a "get out of hell" card.
WFB resident - Jul 20, 2012 8:30 PM
you gain something ! But in fact there is no proof of anything ever being gained , just
lost ! For the slow thinkers : When an animal has an extra fin/arm/foot ,even though
the appendage is added the actual information in the DNA is actually less !!! So if you
are one of those that assume that PDLS's are further along the evolutionary chain .
Then you would be saying they were less human ! or ape ,bird or what ever they
wish to call themselves . As for showing scientists that have changed . Take the time
and yahoo : German climate scientists who have found more information and
conclude MMGW to be false !! For even if I point it out for dullards ,they would just
deny !
MGarber - Jul 20, 2012 9:10 PM
Asside from being somewhat unclear, that is not even vaguely true; where'd you get that from?
"Take the time and yahoo "
No. I asked you for examples to your claim, not vague instructions.
aneuhauser - Jul 21, 2012 12:58 AM
MGarber - Jul 21, 2012 8:51 AM
Im surprised that you dont seem to know that it was originally nicknamed the god(darn) particle because of its elusiveness, and was changed by the publisher to the more family friendly name we're burdened with now. No one ever felt this was some kind of theological usurpation.
The higgs completing the Standard Model is NOT the TheoryOfEverything; that's reserved for when quantum mechanics gets reconciled with relativity (BTW, is relativity just another con?). Even when/if it does, Im not sure THATS any theological usurpation.
Its just that your absolutist attitude reminds me of the wailing and gnashing of teeth when Galileo and Newton disclosed gravitation to the point that orbits could be accurately predicted. All of a sudden, a bearded robed god wasnt individually hand guiding each heavenly body across the sky, and it DID cause quite a stir. Yet religion seems to be alive and well 400 years later.
I just dont see how evolution, the standard model, or even the TOE are fundamentally different from gravitation (or electicity, etc), and usurps a supernatural creator. It would be the creation of the *processes* that is how everything is here today, and guides what will be here tomorrow.
MGarber - Jul 21, 2012 11:03 AM
One of 4, and by far the weakest one, which I think is why it was the last one to be understood..
I had to correct that.
ahemmer - Jul 21, 2012 6:09 PM
Whatever.
The anti-God comments are just such classic examples of the mentality of the liberal mindset, especially Barry O (who finds the toughest part of the day is tearing himself away from the mirror...). For some reason, the anti-religion libs seem to find God repugnant (unless one is a Muslim, then libs bend over backwards to accomadate Islam) and love to think they are "the ones we've been waiting for" (wink wink) :)
MGarber - Jul 21, 2012 10:16 PM
Yes, Human Ape is a pantload. That is obvious, and everyone is ignoring him, as is proper, until you brought it up.
Obama... Islam... yes yes, very insightful. Thank you for adding nothing of substance to this conversation.
Whatever. Just keep your Wink-wink to yourself.
Tom Bal - Jul 22, 2012 11:50 AM
Being a Christian on here isn’t easy I give Trucker all the credit in the world. Funny every Christmas and Easter the Non-believers come here to howl at us for having our faith if for nothing else just to try and insult us.
But in the end it will be them looking for an answer to all of this not myself.
My faith in Jesus Christ will carry me to the promise land.
Kind of nice going through life knowing we have eternal life: must be extremely empty not knowing what lays in wait in the end.
May God Have mercy on your souls.
jman99 - Jul 22, 2012 12:22 PM
Actually Islam is an Abrahamic Religion just like Judaism and Christianity. It's all the same God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
MGarber - Jul 22, 2012 12:22 PM
Trying what? Having a reasonable conversation? I dont recall that.
"Being a Christian on here isn’t easy"
* Ive never made fun of anyone based on their being Christian.
* Believing the earth is 6000 years old isnt Christianity.
" Funny every Christmas and Easter the Non-believers come here to howl "
Maybe if you stopped all your public whining about the war on christianity every chistmas & easter, there'd be less howling.
"must be extremely empty not knowing what lays in wait in the end."
Not at all. Actually, somewhat the opposite, but unlike you, I feel no need to blab about it.
Tom Bal - Jul 22, 2012 1:46 PM
SLA and Bama would have none of it. Myself and Al were lambasted for our beliefs by both on Easter. Let it rest no.
2 Never mentioned your name: Guilty complex??
3. Don’t remember ever whining about anything just asked for some common respect for my beliefs. I give it to you how bout doing the same, public whining what are you doing right now?? Suggesting LOL.
4 What’s the blog about? So it’s alright for all of you to make a comment about it but when I do its Blabbing.
To funny.
Am I not allowed to have my option?
Every time this subject comes up I’m ridiculed because I believe in Christ. For some reason Christians bother you atheists don’t know why after all you’re the party of getting along with everyone are you not so what gives are you stereotyping me with others that have annoyed you. Want proof just read the posts; there is absolutely no respect for any of us here. Here I’m told I believe in fairy tales, or have evolved from incest and then you want to know why I stated what I did Get real.
Seems to bother you a bit more then myself I'm use to the Liberal BS
MGarber - Jul 22, 2012 3:27 PM
4. The blog is about scientific discoveries supposedly displacing God. Care to contribute a thought or two? Saying nothing except for Cheerleading for your particular religion counts as blabbing. There are lots of Christians that I have deep respect for; they are the ones that go beyond "Im saved - You're doomed - Too bad for you".
But there IS a line that, as I previously said, some have crossed over. But thats been true of both sides at various times over various issues. If your going to post/comment on the interweb, and you have a thin skin..... well just dont do it.
aneuhauser - Jul 22, 2012 5:31 PM
Bama: You are't trying to tell me that mutaions prove evolution which, the last time I looked was still a theory, are you? Mutations clearly tend to be undesirable, as in some of the examples you used. The problem with evolutionary theory is the lack of clear species-transitional fossil evidence. The fish with leg-like fins is a weak example used to buttress the "missing link" argument, but it's probably just a fish with an unfortunate birth defect that pooped out. If species actually transitioned, we should be buried in half fish--half mammal artifacts. "Where have all the fossils gone?"
MG: The electron is a fermion, not a bosun. I would think a smart fella like you would know that. There is also a distinct difference between an electical field and a mass-gravitational field. You should know that too. Apples and oranges, my friend.
MGarber - Jul 22, 2012 9:19 PM
Why does one piece of the standard model seemingly usurp a supernatural creator, when the others dont seemingly bother you?
Why doesnt relativity bother you?
Why doesnt the earth no longer being the center of the universe bother you?
Why doesnt the calculability of orbits bother you?
Why doesnt the understanding the other 3 fundamental forces bother you?
Its really just one question.
WFB resident - Jul 22, 2012 9:29 PM
in to this . Why not ? He is the PDLS savior is he not ? Thank you . On to my next
vacation !
Mucho - Jul 23, 2012 12:17 PM
Good point Al. Hundreds of millions of years of fossils and not a single piece of transitionary species evidence. Yet that belief is allowed in schools when others with an equal amount of evidence are strictly forbidden.
It takes mans arrogance to presume there is no God (allah, intelligent design, et al) when their mere being and complexity of design points to that as the most logical conclusion.
MGarber - Jul 23, 2012 3:17 PM
Which are not easy to find, and have only been studied for a couple of hundred years.
"... and not a single piece of transitionary species evidence."
I cant beleive creationists still insist on making this silly staement. There's a pretty good list at: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110131213AAMbcKD. Is every one of these truly transitional? Probably not, but just one transitional fossil and the debate would be over for good.
MGarber - Jul 23, 2012 3:20 PM
Please, please, please cite some of these theories, AND their evidence. Please.
Mucho - Jul 23, 2012 3:56 PM
That is a list of extinct animals. There are no transitions occurring there. the only one that came close in anyone's theory in recent history is Archaeopteryx (the one Al referred to once thought to be a "chicken/lizard transition". That was tossed out in 1984 by the very consortium of scientists that hold conventions specific to that fossil. They unanimously agreed to a resolution that it was "problematic" as proof of transition theory.
There is no fish/dog, snake/rat, frog/sparrow, salamander/weasel or Ape/Man in any fossil record. They are in the imaginations of frustrated men that resort to artists renderings to put in childrens textbooks so they can recruit more gullible intellectuals at an early age.
Mucho - Jul 23, 2012 3:57 PM
Easy - Adam and Eve did not have navels.
Victory is mine. - Prove me wrong.
WFB resident - Jul 23, 2012 4:02 PM
theory aspect . 2). The people who want Darwinism to be correct are not able to
prove it with out low brows like Garber to follow .
WFB resident - Jul 23, 2012 5:11 PM
MGarber - Jul 23, 2012 5:24 PM
From the wikipedia - "Since all species will always be subject to natural selection, the very term "transitional fossil" is essentially a misconception."
That means we (or your dog, or your cat) could very well be a transitional species.
"There is no fish/dog, snake/rat....."
Those would be called chimeras, whose existance would be an excellent DISproof(flasification) of evolution.
"Adam and Eve ..."
Who???
jman99 - Jul 23, 2012 5:35 PM
Easy - Adam and Eve did not have navels.
Victory is mine. - Prove me wrong."
Please provide the variety of the apple in question.
Please provide the exact GPS location of the "Garden of Eden".
Please porvide the variety of the snake in question.
If all of the above are true, proof will be easily found.
Skeletal remains tend to keep intact well in dry climates. Please provide the burial location of 1) Adam 2) Eve. they are less than 7000 years old, so evidence should be well preserved.
Please provide the name of Kane's wife.
bamaphd - Jul 23, 2012 6:03 PM
Use your head Al.
under controlled lab conditions it may take 20 to 30 generations to engineer a mouse that will display a certain characteristic.
Genetic drift also is involved when a variation of species comes about. Change is slow and gradual over geological time scales, so you don't see wholesale changes or the type of "grafting" that you imply. The longer lived the organism the longer the evolutionary time frame for change to occur.
If you look at this it will give you a clue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
If this much devastation occurs over such short time spans of human genetics, we should assume that over a brief period of 7000 years, humans would cease to exist if we were bred from just two parents.
And yet, populations have expanded over the past 100 years at a rate that is explosive.
But populations have shrunk in those societies that are inbred. One of the societies that has a large problem procreating is the strict Hebrew population which does not bring in "new blood" into the sect. This is one of the classic symptoms of an inbred society.
Think Al. Think.
WFB resident - Jul 23, 2012 7:50 PM
Please provide the variety of the apple in question. : edible ?
Please provide the exact GPS location of the "Garden of Eden". : o:oo;oo:oo,oo.
Please porvide the variety of the snake in question. The most deadly (PDLS union
member)!!
If all of the above are true, proof will be easily found. It was !!
Skeletal remains tend to keep intact well in dry climates. Please provide the burial
location of 1) Adam 2) Eve. they are less than 7000 years old, so evidence should be
well preserved. You know very well that Earth had no coordinates then ! Plus why
do you conclude dryness in eden ? Is your belief eden was hell ?
Please provide the name of Kane's wife. Wife number 1 ! He was nice to her ,for
he thought he would get his rib back .
MGarber - Jul 23, 2012 9:59 PM
Tom Bal being a pantload Jul 22, 2012 11:50 AM doesnt mean you have to stoop to that level.
WFB resident - Jul 24, 2012 1:04 AM
Darwinism ! lol... All they can do is say that a religion is based on faith ! lol... Yet
they still can not defend theirs .
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 8:21 AM
WFB resident - Jul 24, 2012 9:22 AM
Mucho - Jul 24, 2012 2:19 PM
Recently, that status has been changed and then reinstated. http://blog.f1000.com/2011/12/19/when-is-a-bird-not-a-bird%E2%80%A6-and-then-a-bird-again/
It is humorous because some of the so-called predecessors of Archaeopteryx are known to have existed 10-50 million years after Arch with none found before. If you fossilized every living thing alive today and gave the fossils to a group of paleontologists, they would create a timeline of 40 million years showing how an iguana evolved into a bald eagle over a timespan that does not exist.
Makes for a good story but as noted English paleontoligist Colin Patterson said "such stories are not a part of science" (when referring to Archaeopteryx as a definitive transitionary species.)
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 3:29 PM
Since he clearly is an evolutionist, will you continue to refer to him as a "noted English paleontoligist"??
WFB resident - Jul 24, 2012 4:35 PM
Mucho - Jul 24, 2012 5:46 PM
Like many religions, the evolutionists argue about that wihich can neither be seen nor proven. That is my point. Thousands of hypothesis, little evidence, yet unwavering faith in the general belief.
I am not saying they are wrong just that there is a obvious double standard. Genesis is wrong until proven correct, evolution is correct until proven wrong in their minds. The role of "intelligence" in the design is what every evolutionist's path to prove a hypothesis dead ends at.
The Archaeopteryx debate is a microcosm of the entire evolutionist theory. Some believe it came from the water, some the land, some think it learned to fly by running and jumping others argue that it ran down rocky cliffs or jumped from trees. All experts, all with proof they are right, all in conflict with each other. Sounds a little like the Jews, Muslims, Budhists, Christians and Atheists.
One thing the evolutionists and paleontoligists can agree on is that if you make your fossil look really cool with a lively palette, it gets more attention. The whole theory is only confined by imagination and on artists' renderings. (really awesome artists renderings)
http://www.livescience.com/15246-flap-flop-earth-bird-bird.html
http://www.artoflegendindia.com/archaeopteryx-p-5577.html
http://www.arthursclipart.org/prehistoriclife/life/archaeopteryx.gif
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 8:05 PM
About relative minor points (did you even read the link I gave?) while looking at real data (fossils, dna), while religions argue about whole different cosmologies based on mythological texts.
When Darwin proposed natural seletion, the only evidence he had was the intuition gleaned from studying geographically isolated bird populations. The fossil record was almost nil, and its being slowly fleshed out, but all it takes is ONE fossilized homosapien, rabbit, dog, bumblbee to falsify it all. If all these fossils I pointed you to are extinct species (and you're right, BTW, of course they are), where are the fossils for those species that are still here today??? "Microevolution" has been obvserved which is really just evolution on a shorter timescale, and therefore, scope. And DNA accounts for it all perfectly and allows for testable predictions that have been verified.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html
"Genesis is wrong until proven correct...."
No. Genesis is wrong because it doesnt match the real, measurable, touchable geologic, biological and astronomical data. Evolution is equally falsifiable. Go ahead. Do it. Glean a prediction out of Genesis and test for it.
Look... I dont care what you believe. Honest.
The whole issue here is I dont want anybody's unsubstantiated mythology taught as science in the schools. Our ranking in science education is pitiful right now as it is.
What you tell your kids is your business; what teachers, paid with my taxes, teach to the kids that'll run this country someday and compete against the rest of the world, is every citizen's business.
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 9:31 PM
OK. Its settled then. Nah... that was too easy.
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 10:09 PM
MGarber - Jul 24, 2012 10:10 PM
WFB resident - Jul 24, 2012 10:51 PM
extinct species (and you're right, BTW, of course they are), where are the fossils for
those species that are still here today???"'
Do you not believe in extinction of a species ? In a Darminists view the happenings
of evolution happen over time yet that means thousands of years for a slight change
according to Darwinists . But many of those examples have many changes . Where
are the fossils of the slight changes ? Many millions of any species must have lived
over thousands of years ! No ???
Mucho - Jul 25, 2012 1:56 PM
I'll go on record and agree with WFB on this one. None are.
The creation of the universe is a circular argument (chicken/egg, acorn/oak tree). The fact that one theory is taught over others when neither can be proven/disproven is a contrary to the impartial/open mind that should be at the helm of the public school system. The words "Big Bang" should only be taught in the context of Hiroshima or Franz Ferdinand and not how "something came of nothing".
Theories, constantly being replaced with new stories to fit the 0.0001% of what we understand. Teach 'em all or teach none of them. They are all faith based. http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionism.html
MGarber - Jul 25, 2012 2:52 PM
Thats not how I read Al's topic.
"Teach 'em all or teach none of them."
There are literally thousands of stories (http://www.godchecker.com lists over 3700). How about just the ones where there's actual measurable evidence?
WFB resident - Jul 25, 2012 4:34 PM
whacked !
Mucho - Jul 25, 2012 5:21 PM
"I find the theories of Big Bang and evolution to be implausible." Al
"So, have your Bang, your strings, your God particle and your random mutations. I'll take Genesis." - Al
Read Al's topic again. If I understand him correctly, I agree with him entirely. I find the random series of events proposed out of the chaos of the Big Bang and evolution theories to be fantasy. It's a hypothesis as much as the acceptance of a higher being is. It is quite logical to presume that the Universe was created by something farther up the food chain than us. It is also logical to believe that man's search for the answer through science is the longer of two paths toward acceptance of that reality. Proving God exists via science does not conflict with my beliefs. So have at it.
aneuhauser - Jul 25, 2012 5:22 PM
Only one general comment. As an engineer and amateur scientist, I am persuaded of the validity of Genesis by the implausibility of the alternative. The Big Bang theory, which is routinely taught to impressionable young minds along with evolution, is particularly nonsensical. If you ditch that one, all that is left is Genesis, my Christian bias notwithstanding. Darwinian Evolution comes in a close second to the Bang.
MGarber - Jul 25, 2012 7:31 PM
So you *DO* find a problem with some scientific discoveries.
Does relativity bother you?
Does the earth no longer being the center of the universe bother you?
Does the calculability of orbits bother you?
Does the understanding the other 3 fundamental forces bother you?
If you have a problem with the big bang and evolution, the answer to the above questions need to be yes.
You didnt really even understand my question, did you?
You could've at least had the courtesy to say so.
MGarber - Jul 25, 2012 7:32 PM
Yes, he repeats the same thing over & over and ignores my counter argument.
"MG, I like your stuff also, even though I don't agree with much of it."
Or apparently read it or understand it, as Ive been trying to get an answer to a relatively simple question. Mucho's "answer" doesnt address my question either which makes me think he actually doesnt read or comprehend my comments.
"This is exactly the kind of idea exchange that I keep hoping for."
One where intellectual honesty take a holiday?
"I am persuaded of the validity of Genesis by the implausibility of the alternative."
If you start addressing the actual evidence for either side, there's no need to invoke a subjective thing like plausability.
"If you ditch that one, all that is left is Genesis".
Yes, Genesis and a multitude of other creation stories. Between the total lack of intellectual honesty, and the failure to address my arguments or questions, theres no sense for me to continue this "Great discussion".
Sayonara
jman99 - Jul 25, 2012 9:24 PM
The turtle one is one of my favorites.
"The Big Bang theory, which is routinely taught to impressionable young minds along with evolution, is particularly nonsensical. "
Isn't that exactly the same argument that can be attributed to the teaching of Genesis to a mind not yet exposed to science? Every religion has it's own "Genesis" story.
They must all be true.
WFB resident - Jul 25, 2012 9:55 PM
and evolution theories to be fantasy."
So you *DO* find a problem with some scientific discoveries.
Garber please share with us this scientific discovery ? please ?
You do realize that Big Bang is a theory ?
referee33 - Jul 25, 2012 10:01 PM
reformed trucker - Jul 25, 2012 10:56 PM
Said he who clings to his blindly...
reformed trucker - Jul 25, 2012 11:00 PM
And who would that be?
sharpaxe - Jul 26, 2012 7:11 AM
So I ask you athiests....How can you risk it? Do you know how hot it's supposed to be down there?
Seriously though, nobody here has proven their side, just a lot of hot air. I'll stick with creationism. I believe faith is a good thing, and I'll stand up for that every day of the week. Those who choose to tell me I'm wrong, chances are they do not have a complete and fulfilling life, I've seen it time and again. Faith fills those voids. I know both sides are guilty, but please stop shoving your crap down our throats, and you will receive no more blowback. There's no point in trying to prove you're a "big thinker"...trust me, you're nobody in the grand scheme of things.
MGarber - Jul 26, 2012 8:16 AM
"If you believe that a "Supreme Being" created the earth, ..."
Orthodox jews do.
"... then you probably believe in a life .... after ... death"
Orthodox jews dont (well, some do, some dont; theres no dogma about it).
"than to discover there is more and I'm not able to enjoy it. "
Why wouldn't you? Because you'd be eternally punished by not believing in the entity that gave you the free will to choose, and you chose one of the other 3700 gods (or none at all)? Because your lifetime dedicated to you family, your fellow man, stewardship of your environment count for nothing compared to you making the wrong arbitrary choise? That god? If it turns out that way... sorry, I dont worship jerks.
"And who would that be? "
Those nice people who killed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno.
"... just a lot of hot air."
What has more hot air than "I beleive for no actual reason."?
"How can you risk it? "
On the interweb, there are many explanations and arguments against http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Pascal's_wager.
MGarber - Jul 26, 2012 9:23 AM
Example, please?
It would be a big help if you stopped insisting your particular creation myth be taught to my childern as science.
MGarber - Jul 26, 2012 9:27 AM
The validity of the big bang doesnt dismiss the existance of a supernatural supreme being. The validity of evolution doesnt dismiss the existance of a supernatural supreme being.
jman99 - Jul 26, 2012 10:25 AM
The validity of the big bang doesnt dismiss the existance of a supernatural supreme being. The validity of evolution doesnt dismiss the existance of a supernatural supreme being. "
Exactly!
What both of these things do is invalidate a mythical dogma that was set out to explain what was not understood scientifically at the time.
If God guides Christians in their lives, why do they need GPS navigation systems?
WFB resident - Jul 26, 2012 2:17 PM
guided us to use GPS systems ? lol... You have got to be a kid !
jman99 - Jul 26, 2012 2:53 PM
guided us to use GPS systems ?
The why didn't God provide them sooner?
MGarber - Jul 26, 2012 3:26 PM
The heck with GPS.
Tens of thousands of years of miserable pain and suffering. Where were antibiotics and anesthetics??????
WFB resident - Jul 26, 2012 4:13 PM
WFB resident - Jul 26, 2012 4:15 PM
feel pain ? ooohhhh .... I stubbed my toe .
Mucho - Jul 26, 2012 4:17 PM
These are not mutually exclusive concepts so your conclusion is incorrect.
One can accept the existence of God, intelligent design and certain concepts of evolution without being in conflict. Just like one can accept that the Earth presents itself as being billions of years old without discounting Genesis.
WFB resident - Jul 27, 2012 12:20 AM
aneuhauser - Jul 27, 2012 5:43 PM
I do not scoff at all science; in fact I love it which is why I get so upset at the corruption of science resulting from outside incentives like grants. The key is to differentiate between scientific fact and theory, especially theory created out of thin air to explain phenomena we want desperately to succumb to a preconceived conclusion.
Gravity/mass is a flaw in the Big Bang theory which, in my estimation invalidates it. I must admit, the bizarre nature of this theory makes it easy to acknowledge the flaw. The desperate search for the Higgs bosun is to me an example of preconceived theorization.
Thanks for your detailed commentary. It is a joy to read reasoned and articulate argument.
MGarber - Jul 27, 2012 8:38 PM
But I think your last comment has a couple of things wrong.
Let me know if you want to continue, or shall we "stick a fork" in this one.
aneuhauser - Jul 29, 2012 5:49 PM