The Face of Evil
This is a difficult post for me to write. The Aurora, Colorado, mass killing of 12 innocent souls and the wounding of 58 others, some seriously, is a monstrous tragedy with victims well beyond the casualties. Dozens of family members and friends are also deeply affected. Please believe me when I assure you I am not trying to capitalize on this tragedy, but I think there is a critical issue here that the media and others are missing. The significance of this and other similar mass killings committed without clear motive or justification is not being addressed, which masks their significance.
As is virtually always the case, the pundits and analysts come out of the woodwork to search for an explanation, precursor, motive or justification for someone deciding to kill a large number of innocent people, usually complete strangers. They look into the perpetrator's childhood, his activities, his associates, searching, searching for some vehicle of understanding. This derives from the pervasive notion that bad things can be prevented from happening if only we find the key to the behavior and fix it. Sometimes it's there in a distorted childhood or traumatic event, but usually it eludes identification.
Jeffery Dahmer had a stupefyingly normal upbringing in a normal family. He stated he didn't know why he did what he did, he just wanted to. The present mass killer, James Holmes, complete with red hair, appeared to be a relatively harmless Batman freak to friends, family and associates. One person, a shooting range proprietor, judged him from a bizarre voicemail greeting and strange conversation to be too unstable to shoot at his range, but did not consider him dangerous. Fellow neuroscience researchers thought him strange or did not notice him at all. The government gave him a sustaining stipend plus a $26,000 grant for his research, part of which he apparently spent to purchase the weapons he used in his rampage.
So. what motivated this hapless misfit and other mass killers? Are they just nuts? Certainly they are not mainstream mentally normal, but is that enough to explain such catastrophic behavior? I think it offers a partial explanation, in that we have shut down mental institutions and made it extremely difficult to commit someone against his will. However, there are lots of mentally deranged individuals walking the streets who don't slaughter a dozen or more fellow citizens.
So, what do we have here? How do we explain these seemingly inexplicable tragic events? We have a tendency in this country to avoid acknowledging evil. We explain the most heinous occurences, sometimes with extremely tortured reasoning. Atrocities committed by Islamic extremists are justified--not by everyone but by some--as the consequence of our bad deeds as a nation. Even 9/11 was so justified. Today, the cowardly street bombings by rebels in Syria are excused as a justified reaction to persecution by the Assad regime. It appears that only Adolf Hitler is acknowledged as an unredeemable bad guy by most folks. Yet, seemingly inexplicable outrages continue to occur with disturbing regularity.
Gun restrictions or an outright ban will not stop the acts of the man without a soul. An assault weapons ban is meaningless. The AR-15 "assault rifle" Holmes carried, along with a shotgun and handgun, was semi-automatic like most handguns, rifles and shotguns. "Semi-automatic" means the weapon fires each time the trigger is pulled. "Military style" is a meaningless appellation that relates more to appearance than function. The military AR-15 has full automatic capability, but is not available to the general public. The designation "assault weapon" is vague and undefined, which is why the NRA opposes their ban. A weapons ban will not stop mass killings. It will just serve to mask the problem.
The cold, hard truth is that evil exists in this world. There are individuals whose, in the Biblical sense, souls are dead. There is no voice of conscience to stay their proclivities for evil. There is no guilt or remorse. The image of red-haired James Holmes in a courtroom, nodding off during the proceedings, disconcerts family members and the public at large. Everyone is afraid to say it: this is an evil man. Jeffery Dahmer was an evil man. John Wayne Gacy was an evil man. So were David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, Charles Manson and more.
Without a soul, there is no limit on conduct. I do not subscribe to the inherent evil of man as some do. I interpret the concept of original sin differently. But there are those depraved individuals for whom there is no explanation other than they are purely evil. Evil has existed in the world since the beginning of history. It even has been responsible for despicable acts in the name of religion. This is not the fault of the religion, but rather of the soulless monster who cloaks his evil actions in it.
Aurora, Colorado, has no rational explanation, other than the act of an evil man. We search in vain for a rational causation. Holmes perhaps is technically insane, but that is not the answer. The only answer, and it is imperfect, is to confront evil where we find it and not to be afraid to deal with it, instead of like the shooting range operator who shrugged off his suspicions. Honest recognition of the existence of evil at least may allow us to identify and confront the enemy before the commission of a horrendous act of mass destruction.
There is no limit to the evil acts of the soulless.
We encourage your comments but will strive to remove discussion that contains personal attacks, racial slurs, profanity or other inappropriate material as outlined in our guidelines. We post-moderate comments on most content, but may choose to pre-moderate some comments so please be patient if you don't see yours appear right way. We also ask for your help by reporting comments you think are inappropriate.
- Stroke Story (29)
- Face of Evil-Boston (62)
- Terror in Boston (57)
- By Way of Explanation/Guns Revisited (129)
- A Life Lost (7)
- Return (125)
- Face of Evil II (97)
- A Day of Infamy (49)
- Aaaauuuggghh! We Lost!! (75)
- Vote for .... ! (8)
- The War of the Words (52)
- Vaya a Dios, Vieho (103)
- The Religion of Peace (70)
- Dual--Darkness and Light (111)
- The Face of Evil (115)
- The God Particle (92)
- Postmortem (17)
- Cold War Warrior (12)
- "And Some Gave All" (5)
- The Comedy of Errors (30)
- The Class Struggle (28)
- F/A 18D Virginia Crash (10)
- The Death of Morality (94)
- Jobs, Jobs, Jobs! (53)
- Insurrection! (33)
- Patriotism (33)
- The Masque Cometh Away (65)
- "The World's Gone Mad!" (102)
- Contagion! (25)
- A.B.O. (144)
- Where Have All The Jobs Gone? (123)
- Light My Volt! (95)
- The Recallodrome (39)
- In the Eye of the Beholder (93)
- The World's Policeman (13)
- Censorship (26)
- E Pluribus Unum (69)
- The Crash of the Galloping Ghost-Update (13)
- The Crash of the Galloping Ghost (4)
- A 9/11 Retrospective (53)
- Responsibility (47)
- "Please Help the Poor!" (41)
- The Sky Didn't Fall (8)
- Toxic Air (71)
- Tension, Apprehension and Dissension (90)
- Independence Day (109)
- The Penney Idea (117)
- Something is Missing (51)
- Boycott!! (17)
- Memorial Day, 2011 (18)
- The Kloppenburg Konspiracy (74)
- The Assassination of OBL (13)
- ... By Any Other Name (180)
- The Green Thing (10)
- A Date That Will Live in Infamy (2)
- Military Madness (53)
- Japanese Meltdown (44)
- Rights and Freedoms (48)
- Change! (28)
- "You're a Bad Player!" (35)
- Chickens and Potatoes (181)
- Quadrology (72)
- The Road Travelled, The Road Ahead (42)
- Life and time (17)
- Peek-a-Boo, I C U (59)
- Never Forget; Never Again (8)
- "... turns the leaves to flame" (13)
- The Lion Sleeps No More (98)
- A Bit of Election Perspective (28)
- A Plea for Understanding (32)
- Global Humbug VI.1 (29)
- The Persian Bomb (9)
- A 9/11 Perspective (37)
- Blue Skies (26)
- Let Them Build It (11)
- What Happened to the Oil? (19)
- "We have met the enemy ..." (4)
- The Border Problem (11)
- The Tunnel to Nowhere (20)
- Danger from Within (40)
- Sauce for the Gander (50)
- Crying Over Spilt Oil (19)
- Dodging the Bullet - The NY Bomber (17)
- Israel and the PR War (9)
- On Perusing the Newspaper (48)
- Protect and Defend II - Star Wars and Stealth (8)
- Lexideception (21)
- Global Humbug VI--Finis (72)
- An Easter Message (11)
- The Wars of the Roses (8)
- High Iron (5)
- Flight Passages (9)
- Protect and Defend (24)
- Ah So! Coincidence You Say? (22)
- White-Out (9)
- Contrast (17)
- The Elitocracy (90)
- Reverse Profiling (25)
- Life and Time (8)
- Humane or Cost-Effective? (24)
- Goodbye for Now (4)
- Boiling Water (45)
- Law of Unintended Consequences II (18)
- A Personal Health Care Experience (10)
- "What's up, Doc?" (29)
- Nuke Me, Nancy! (22)
- Fly Me to the Moon (7)
- Economic Models (30)
- Apology (71)
- Global Humbug V (78)
- Hero Worship (29)
- Independence Day (25)
- Global Humbug IV (30)
- The Broken Engine (23)
- The Suicide Complex (23)
- The Middle East Muddle (64)
- Blowin' in the Wind (6)
- Judge Me Not (4)
- The Red Shift (9)
- "Batteries Not Included" (2)
- The Boys of Pointe du Hoc (5)
- Mendacity (0)
- Unreality (0)
- Green Space (2)
- The Love Affair (20)
- Torturous Interrogation (7)
- The White Horse (7)
- Social Engineering (0)
- Taxed Enough Already (7)
- Bricks, Mortar and Asphalt (6)
- Nature vs. the News (0)
- Media Control? (15)
- A Deer in the Headlights (8)
- Stem Cells - Unmasked (5)
- The Enemy (15)
- CO Flight 3407 Crash (0)
- Stealth Health (9)
- Global Humbug III (7)
- The Money Tree (0)
- Spare the Rod... (0)
- The Whole Truth (9)
- Whence Digital TV? (0)
- "Rescue Me, Please!" (4)
- Spooks and Snoops (7)
- Airbus A320 Crash (5)
- Paying the Piper (26)
- Feeding Frenzy (0)
- DTV Unmasked (7)
- School Daze (0)
- In the Beginning... (8)
- The Law of Unintended Consequences II (2)
- Winter Wonderland (0)
- The Politics of Corruption (0)
- Deficit Divertissement (0)
- Rescue Me, Please! (17)
- Haitus (6)
- The Law of Unintended Consequences (17)
- The Boys of Pointe du Hoc (3)
- The Mourning After (25)
- "Thru a Glass Darkly" - The Election (9)
- Magical Thinking - The Abortion Controversy (11)
- A Little Decorum, Please (49)
- Give Light ... (4)
- The Sophistication of Deception (9)
- Bailout Boondoggle (3)
- Issues and Non-Issues (9)
- Bailout Bedlam (0)
- Bailout Blitzkrieg (8)
- 9/11 Retrospective (20)
- Perspective on Defense Spending (1)
- Beauty in Creation (4)
- Evolution: Fact or fiction (29)
- It Really is the Sun, Son! (0)
- The Georgian Knot (4)
- The emPHAsis is on the wrong sylLAble (8)
- Jason Lives! (6)
- T. Boone Doggle (1)
- Oil and Nukes (11)
- Wind, Sun and Oil (3)
- Cornpone Politics - Redux (0)
- Moonshine Madness - The Great Ethanol Scam (4)
- The Helping Hand (0)
- Cornpone Politics (0)
- The Latest Obamaflap (4)
- The Corruption of Science (2)
- Parenting 101 (0)
- The Sport of Kings(?) (0)
- "You Can't Say THAT!" (2)
- The Truth About Tuskegee (3)
- DUI in Wisconsin (3)
- Iraq War-Up Close and Personal (3)
- Why Johnny Can't Write, or Read, or Add. (1)
- Whither Wales Water II (0)
- Iraq War Followup (3)
- Global Humbug II (0)
- The Iraq War (Oh No! Not Again!!) (5)
- Economics 101 (3)
- Global Humbug (3)
- A Mania for Development (2)
- Valentine's Day Massacre (1)
- By Way of Introduction (0)
- Whither Wales' Water? (1)
- More Eagle's Eye posts






115 Comments
ahemmer - Jul 27, 2012 6:34 PM
Witness for yourself the protests against "Death Row" vs. the promotion by the same libs for abortion. Makes any sense? Only in liberal land.
bamaphd - Jul 27, 2012 7:01 PM
"What I find appalling is that many (liberals for the most part) find more compassion for the victims of crimes then the actual criminals."
Should it not be that way?
You are one twisted monkey Hemmer.
bamaphd - Jul 27, 2012 7:39 PM
In the past we may have called these folks "possessed by demons".
Well the "demons" are still there. In cases like this you really don't know who the real person is and who the alter identities are. Most are very high functioning people who will not turn to violence. Many are never diagnosed. They are the "quirky" people.
Evil? Possible one of the identities is just that, driving another less strong identity to commit an act. There may not even be a true identity to this individual any longer, that can exert any sort of control.
Gun control would be no protection against this individual. because as demonstrated, he was able to make weapons on his own. The gun was just an easier , more efficient vehicle, that offered quicker gratification than what the Oklahoma bombers were able to use. (Ar-15 mods to full auto are all over the web BTW, it would be a no brainer for someone who had this level of smarts).
So evil? Tough call. What makes it evil: the killing, the planning, or both? Is he evil because he killed many or is he evil because he killed the first one? Is killing just one person less evil than killing many?
I think the term "evil" is over used to cover off too many things we don't want to take the time to dig into and understand fully. We don't sentence people based on a degree of "evilness" because it is too subjective, we sentence them by a proven degree of intent and planning, and only if we determine that they were sane at the time the committed the act.
MGarber - Jul 27, 2012 8:30 PM
6:30 on a Fri? Im giving her the bennefit of the doubt and chalk it up to martini editing.
Im more curious as to what made him snap so bad, rather than trying to define evil.
ExToDResident - Jul 27, 2012 8:57 PM
known about the human brain. The degree of discourse among the bloggers here
to see how little we understand about why we think the things we think.
I believe that the behavior of people like those you mention. Maybe someday in
the future we will learn to identify the behaviours that represent the foundations
for such violent acts.
Perhaps some day we will be able to cure the most pervasive and heinous of all age
related brain diseases; conservatism. At that time we will have cured the pie in the
sky optimism for the future of liberalism.
WFB resident - Jul 27, 2012 9:29 PM
what they see as a disease (Conservatism)and (people of color) ! But like most
diseases the first to try to correct them are proven incorrect . Usually trying the
exact opposite of what it really is . So please do not hold ex's comments against him
for some day he will grow up and out of his disease ! Hemmer and Hayett did ! lol...
Good night ex .
aneuhauser - Jul 28, 2012 12:43 AM
I don't buy the multiple personality concept for evil ones. Dahmer's, Gacy's, Manson's (he probably IS nuts) or Holmes's conduct was consistent over a period of time. The latter carefully planned and prepared for his rampage, including booby trapping his room to kill more in the person of police. There is/was no indication of a shift in personality. The "good guy" never came out.
bamaphd - Jul 28, 2012 10:00 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooting-suspect-james-holmes-psychiatrist/story?id=16872374#.UBP9xqDleSo
yert49 - Jul 28, 2012 10:58 AM
case many lefties do suffer from a weird affinity for criminals. I've never understood
it. It's a lack of recognition of good and evil. Al is right on here.
It truly is the emptiness of the soul. You will know it when you see it.
ahemmer - Jul 28, 2012 11:27 AM
I'll re-state part of my comment as it should have read just to be clear so lefties like bamaphd (a Phd. and he can't tell what I meant?) or GWB will understand:
"What I find appalling is that many (liberals for the most part) find more compassion for the criminals than the victims of crimes. Why? The true victims in ANY crime are those that fall prey to criminals. The criminals are not the victims, even though the lefties seem so intent on making them so."
Libs are so quick to bend over backwards, find any loophole, reason, or excuse bad or violent and/or criminal behavior. Someone kills someone - why, they had to have had a horrific childhood - the "system" failed them - blah blah blah. We are all to blame for the misconduct and evil deeds of others.
Sorry. No we are not.
We must stop trying to deflect the blame off the perpetrators and make excuses for bad or criminal behavior of others. Remember even after the horrors of 9/11 some were clamoring to "understand" where the terrorists were coming from? why did they hate us so? must have been something the USA did!!! Disgusting.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 28, 2012 12:15 PM
to violate the only real moral absolute, the "Golden Rule", a moral tenet from which
all others are derived.
Studies show 4% of the population are psychopaths, of one type or another.
ahemmer - Jul 28, 2012 4:31 PM
And Al didn't "start" anything.
MGarber - Jul 28, 2012 5:44 PM
There is no need to politicize this topic. Al didnt need to do it, and neither should you.
ahemmer - Jul 28, 2012 6:30 PM
I expected the leftie mainstream media to do exactly what they did in regards to Colorado, and they did not disappoint. Even though they were wrong.
bamaphd - Jul 28, 2012 6:43 PM
No, I don't read minds. I have to go by the evidence on the page.
bamaphd - Jul 28, 2012 6:50 PM
Only by the reality you perceive and believe exists. A chair is a chair to both you and me. That's reality. What you think of the chair and what I think of the chair are only our perceptions. Neither has any bearing on the reality of the chair being a chair, and cannot change it in any way shape or form.
yert49 - Jul 28, 2012 9:54 PM
have not heard of a spade being a spade. Perceptions are based on reality and
unless you are delusional based on facts.
WFB resident - Jul 28, 2012 11:52 PM
going to bed ! Nite !!
MGarber - Jul 29, 2012 8:03 AM
I wasnt talking about the whole world, Amy; I was talking about our little group.
I notice about how you arent mentioning all the groups/outlets that are blaming the shootings on the rise of atheism, the gays, Obama, etc. Where's your indignancy for that??
"Perceptions are based on reality."
They should be, but as Ive illustrated, it aint necessarily so.
Tom Bal - Jul 29, 2012 9:38 AM
What difference does it make whether he’s a conservative Liberal Islamic Purple white or black or liked Kiss?
In my option these people are truly insane. My problem with this though is if they are insane why are they were sane enough to contrive the deed. This took weeks of planning.
My thoughts are anyone who has no regard for life must have something deeply wrong in their heads.
I don’t see a need to politesse this at all.
These people are as Al said evil that’s it whether he’s Conservative Liberal religious or atheist it make do never mind to me. Evil is evil I really don’t care about his back ground his likes or dislikes.
There are still something’s I think we need to come together on and this is one of them.
These are tragic terrible deaths I really don’t care whether he watched CNN or Fox News in the end he made the choice.
When tragedy’s like this happen I just don’t understand the blame game, and I don’t think the victims loved ones do either.
And I really don’t understand the Media fueling these fires between us.
ahemmer - Jul 29, 2012 9:58 AM
Victor Ponelis - Jul 29, 2012 4:35 PM
Irrespective of that, Mr. Holmes should be locked up for the rest of his life...he is
a danger to himself and those around him.
I am bothered by your statement that "without a soul there is no limit on conduct".
If by soulless one means a psychopath, then we are in agreement. If you mean
some metaphysical entity, for which no evidence exists...well, then we have a
problem.
Let us constrain ourselves to observable reality....it is the only mechanism by
which the largest number of people can share in this important conversation.
As far as gun control is concerned....well, it has not been shown to be effective.
Statistically speaking, 3 things contribute to a lower crime rate: community
policing or increased policing, harsher crime sentences....and finally and most
effective, legalized abortion. Unwanted children grow up to be criminals, plan and
simple. This does not mean I recommend abortion as crime control (that would
be immoral and misconstrue unrelated arguments and issues), but if we want to
know what DOES lower crime.....it cannot be ignored.
aneuhauser - Jul 29, 2012 6:06 PM
Victor: Let's not get bogged down in definitions. The Christian calls it a soul, or conscience; the non-believer calls it by some psychiatric name. The net result is the same: a depraved individual who kills others without compunction. Please don't get me started on abortion. In my view, your statement is appalling.
Tom: Thanks. You get the point.
ahemmer - Jul 29, 2012 7:16 PM
Sorry. I have to disagree with you on this one. I have not tried to "politicize" this in any way, just am pointing out that in the big scheme of things, liberals usually do find excuses for criminal behavior and turn up their noses at the victims.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 29, 2012 7:25 PM
Methaphysical or not, I think we agree....he is depraved.
As for my appalling statement regarding gun control...I did not wish to offend, but
you brought up gun control. I was just sharing what statistical analysis shows....I
would prefer abortion not have that strong inverse relationship...but there it is.
Citation: http://neuro.bcm.edu/eagleman/neurolaw/papers/[Levitt]2004.pdf
aneuhauser - Jul 30, 2012 12:34 AM
Victor. The gun control and policing/sentencing comments are acceptable, even though I do not fully agree. I think enforcement can have a deterrent effect, but unfortunately not in the case of a truly evil miscreant who doesn't care. The abortion reference remains appalling. Pre-killing the innocent is not an acceptable solution to this or any problem, most especially in my book. (It's personal; we have two adopted daughters.)
Victor Ponelis - Jul 30, 2012 5:18 AM
abortion....well, in 20 years you better higher more cops, you are going to need
them. And neither I, nor the economist who wrote that article, would recommend
that...it would be immoral public policy. In my book, you legalize abortion
because those that can't control their own bodies (women) are thus second-class
citizens....and choice allows women to have the same control over their bodies
men do. That has always been my rationale.
However, it is a causative factor in lower crime rates. The stats don't lie. I'm not
going to be an ostrich and hide my head in the sand from this sad truth....but
there it is. And now because it is personally painful for you to contemplate,
consider the point made...and dropped.
ahemmer - Jul 30, 2012 7:21 AM
The point I wanted to add is that until all realize such, some in our society will attempt to make excuses and deflect blame away from the true perpetrators of evil. Why? I don't have a clue. However, by looking around for excuses for evil behavior - we are discounting those who suffer at the hands of evil to begin with.
MGarber - Jul 30, 2012 7:48 AM
False dichotomy.
Change the sentence to ""However, by looking around for causes and sources for evil behavior - we are discounting those who suffer at the hands of evil to begin with." and the false dichotomy becomes more apparant.
WFB resident - Jul 30, 2012 9:40 AM
Mucho - Jul 30, 2012 10:38 AM
policing or increased policing, harsher crime sentences....and finally and most
effective, legalized abortion"..."statistics don't lie" - Victorp
Very twisted that you bring up killing as a solution to killing. There is ONE significant contributor to crime - POVERTY. A better economy and lower unemployment is the tried and true method to lowering crime. Compiling associations between disparate conditions is bad logic.
Regardless, the Aurora massacre is outside the typical crime statitistics and falls into the classification of the evil that Al is talking about. Unlike most poverty driven and drug related crimes, petty theft, burglary, etc... abortion is rooted in that same evil. Just look at the origins of Planned Parenthood.
Better economy means lower crime. Decreasing the poverty level by 1% lowers crime by over 2%. http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php
By design (dating back to Margaret Sangers eugenics goals) Planned Parenthood preys on poor neighborhoods - That is why your bogus correlation exists between abortion and crime.
jman99 - Jul 30, 2012 11:30 AM
LOL.
It's never Hemmer's fault even when she blunders. Now that's Ego.
Actually bamaphd BBQ'd you quite well with your own words as the sauce.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 30, 2012 12:01 PM
statistically significant finding that legalized abortion lowers crime if it was
previously illegal. Abortion should not be pursued as a crime control measure,
and I stated this. Please do not misconstrue my position. Issues of female/male
equality are outside the scope of this discussion, but are the reasons I do support
a woman's choice regarding abortion.
Can we now return to the raison d'etre of this posting?
MGarber - Jul 30, 2012 2:02 PM
???!!!!...liberals turn up their noses at the victims. !!!!???
Thats not politicizing???? What is it called, then????
jman99 - Jul 30, 2012 2:35 PM
Thats not politicizing???? What is it called, then????"
Exactly.
Mucho - Jul 30, 2012 4:21 PM
I am happy to stay on point. You did a quick drive by and threw out an irrelevant mistruth and I called you on it. Poverty, unemployment and population density are equal factors in abortion rates and crime rates. Concluding ther is a direct relationship between the end products of the same root causes is illogical. Happy to stay on topic but you brought up the invalid statistic for a reason, so I thought it best to clean it up.
Mucho - Jul 30, 2012 4:30 PM
Whatever demons are inside that loser's head in Aurora are evil. If it can be associated as mental illness and not recognized for the evil that Al describes it as...It is still evil. Evil manifests itself in many ways, via any color, class, religion, party, age, etc...
Al makes a very solid point by calling a spade a spade.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 30, 2012 5:39 PM
information.
WFB resident - Jul 30, 2012 8:08 PM
Mucho - Jul 31, 2012 11:54 AM
Poverty = High Crime
http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php
Poverty = High Abortion Rate
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/greenjournal/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.as
px?year=2011&issue=06000&article=00014
Good reasons in each analysis to demonstrate the dependency of the variables.
Drawing a relationship between crime and abortion when they are dependent upon the
same variables is bad math.
ExToDResident - Jul 31, 2012 12:25 PM
I will attempt to clarify what I was trying to say for you WFB.
“There is more that is known about deep space or the depths of the ocean than is
known about the human brain.” At present we know more about the oceans and space than we do about the functioning of the human brain. Science is just beginning to understand what effects body chemistry (hormone balances, chemicals, medications) has on the brain.
“The degree of discourse among the bloggers here to see how little we understand about why we think the things we think.” I was attempting to say that all one has to do is take a quick read of these blogs to see that there is a huge void in the understanding of the differences of opinion expressed in these blogs. With each side struggling to understand what the other stands for.
“I believe that the behavior of people like those you mention.” An incomplete thought, I was going to say that I believe that the behavior of the people you mentioned should be studied, by competent specialists to understand what made them do the things they did. In doing so it is possible to eventually understand what influences and life experiances caused them to act like they did. Do not get me wrong, I do not believe they should be coddled in any way, but they should be studied in order to attempt to understand why they are the way they are. Because then...”Maybe someday in the future we will learn to identify the behaviors that represent the foundations for such violent acts.”
I believe in criminal profiling and trying to “get into the perpetrators head” to try and figure out their next move. The more we understand about criminal behavior the better off we would be as a society.
ExToDResident - Jul 31, 2012 12:26 PM
Perhaps some day we will be able to cure the most pervasive and heinous of all age related brain diseases; conservatism. (It seems to eliminate all hope for the future, and leaves a longing for a golden age that never existed)
At that time we will have found the cure for the (feel good) pie in the sky optimism of liberalism. (Creates a delusional belief that in the future the human race will live in peace and harmony)
WFB resident - Jul 31, 2012 2:48 PM
ahemmer - Jul 31, 2012 4:17 PM
And somehow because of this portrayal are you saying that this is why the mainstream news media rushes all over each other when violent large-scale crimes are committed in their efforts to tie in the guilty with ANY conservative or right-leaning organization? Face it, Mucho. It happens in almost every instance, and the Aurora shooting was no exception. Witness ABC news manufacturing some sort of "Tea Party" connection to the shooter - which was not true in any sense. They just threw it out there, hoping it would stick. It didn't. On the flip side, look at how the media, in its love affair with protecting Muslims and terrorists, tried so hard to keep the fact that the Ft. Hood shooter was a Muslim. We didn't hear about that for days - until it managed to leak out. THe media bent over backwards to keep this fact quiet. Yet they have no problem writing ad nauseum about any tiny misbehavior by a very small group of U.S. soldiers who accidentally burn two or three Korans or play loud music at Club Gitmo (oh the horrors!).
ExToDResident - Jul 31, 2012 6:16 PM
matter what I write you spin and distort it into something completely different from
what I wrote. You are too consistent for this to be intentional, so I attribute it to
your nature. After all you have demonstrated a lack of comprehension in previous
blogs.
MGarber - Jul 31, 2012 7:32 PM
And ExToD tries to reason with a child.
Details at 10:00.
ExToDResident - Jul 31, 2012 8:50 PM
I was aware of the futility of trying to make the Wallboard Finished Basement
resident understand reason when I was composing my response.
I know I must stop feeding the troll.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 31, 2012 10:09 PM
having fallen into the pattern...and decided it was beneath me. I shall not
respond to goading...but stick to the relevant points of Al's thesis.
Evil, as I define it, is lack of empathy for one's fellow humans....metaphysics is
irrelevant. Disease, when present and responsible for great wrong, necessitates
treatment...and probable confinement. Mr. Holmes is diseased, at best, and
deserves life-long confinement.
Do not misunderstand my point regarding the uselessness of gun control...and
what has been responsible for the decrease of crime over the last 20 years. It is
certainly not an endorsement of abortion as a crime control measure...it is merely
a description of reality.
Causal relations are established by vigorous OLS analysis, and I do not deny
poverty as correlated....but causation with respect to violence has not been
established by the commentators here....and my vigorous analysis presented by
Dr. Levitt of UChicago stands until refuted. His control of disparate states that
legalized abortion previous to Roe v. Wade shows that abortion has a causative
relation with violence, inversely related. Many foreign, disparate, foreign
countries that have much lower rates of violence means culture has not been
controlled for...implying ours is a violent society....again, this is a hypothesis, not
causally established.
So...evil exists where empathy for one's fellow humans is lacking. Evil should be
punished, disease treated...is there truly any debate on this point?
Victor Ponelis - Jul 31, 2012 10:21 PM
significant. So, higher poverty equals higher crime (a common sense conclusion),
and higher poverty is associated with higher abortion rates. Also common sense.
Decrease poverty, decrease crime, decrease abortion. Laudable goals. But Dr.
Levitt's analysis is not invalidated. If you have legalized abortion, all things being
equal, and illegalize it, crime will increase with the increase in unwanted children.
Abortion, as I said before, is not a laudable crime control means...but if you want
to treat women the equal of men, you give them control over their own
bodies....my original point.
Victor Ponelis - Jul 31, 2012 10:28 PM
There really is no good reason to oppose abortion. Please do not cite
Leviticus....why should we, in the 21 Century, hold our morality hostage to Bronze
Age savages for whom the wheelbarrow would have been an innovation?
Also, please do not cite Catholic doctrine...it is bankrupt. Why people take their
sex advice from ostensible celibates (except, it seems, when it comes to young
boys) is beyond me. The papacy's discouragement of contraception, especially in
Africa, means the Catholic Church literally has the blood of innocent millions on its
hands.
Decrease crime....by focusing on poverty. Decrease abortion...by emphasizing
contraception. Easy. Moral. Simple.
irked - Aug 01, 2012 12:56 AM
punished, disease treated...is there truly any debate on this point?" How do you
decide if one is lacking empathy ? Is there no need for causation in your world ?
"Also, please do not cite Catholic doctrine...it is bankrupt. Why people take their
sex advice from ostensible celibates (except, it seems, when it comes to young
boys) is beyond me." Well to get true wisdom for as vic wrote "(sex with boys)" one
would only need to ask a Public school teacher ! For comparing abuse to abuse the
teachers far out number The Church in those matters !! Then vic says this : "The
papacy's discouragement of contraception, especially in
Africa, means the Catholic Church literally has the blood of innocent millions on its
hands."
Vic are you saying that abortion is OK ? If so how do you justify the killing of millions
of innocent babies ? Is that not a sign of showing no moral empathy ? It is to me .
With that conclusion would that not make pro-abortion people evil in your eyes ?
Some how I think your opinion/rules change then ! Funny how that works .
Victor Ponelis - Aug 01, 2012 7:22 AM
abortion. My point was on the apparent uselessness of gun control with respect
to violence, and cited the study I did as one that showed causal relations for those
things that have been shown to be statistically significant in reducing
crime....policing, harsher crime sentences and legalized abortion. I haven't seen
a strong challenge to those findings.
I am NOT saying abortion is OK. Anyone who says abortion is NOT killing is
obfuscating. What I have said, repeatedly, is that it is necessary to offer women
the CHOICE of whether to abort or not....because if they do not have control over
their own bodies, and men do, then they are treated lesser than men, and are
second-class citizens at best.
Religious objections aside (I'm not religious, so irrelevant to me...but if that is
one's central focus, I support, yet disagree, with your belief....it is your right to
believe that), I think the reason abortion is objected to by so many is that the
decision resides with a person. Most societies sanction group-sanctioned
violence....police in enforcing a nation's laws, armies in defending a nation).
Group-sanctioned violence means responsibility is dispersed throughout society.
The exception allowed universally is self-defence. (Max Weber held that the state
is that entity holding a legitimate monopoly on violence).
But the universe does not care about our moral quandaries....and liberty and
equality, person vs. group considerations, collide with abortion in an irreconcilable
way. Remember, I'm not saying women should have abortions....I'm saying that,
to be equal to men, they must have control over their bodies and have the choice.
It is not a conclusion I like...but there it is.
MGarber - Aug 01, 2012 8:03 AM
I read Feakanomics when it 1st came out, and it was a fun, fascinating read, but as far as the abortion-crime study: http://www.isteve.com/freakonomics_fiasco.htm.
Discounting his study still begs the question as to where the huge drop in crime in the 1990s actually DID come from.
Other than that, your analysis and viewpoint, strike me as sane and reasoned.
It hasn't got a chance.
jman99 - Aug 01, 2012 8:32 AM
irked - Aug 02, 2012 12:30 AM
baby just to allow equality in your mind is showing no moral empathy ! Equality does
not happen by allowing one to kill ! If a woman wants true rights over her body she
must not except ones donation to add to a child ! In doing so she has given her self
to another in more ways than one !! Justification is a strong instinct for
murderers,Druggies, child molesters, and any other person trying to feel better
about themselves ! The face of evil is shrouded in justification which connects your
jump to prosti.......no abortion .
Carl Hicks - Aug 02, 2012 1:37 AM
been and will always be those who do not care about how their actions affect
others.
irked - Aug 02, 2012 7:39 AM
help !!
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 1:36 PM
there is nothing that we as a society can do about these heinous acts. Until we
understand what makes people like this do such heinous acts we are powerless to
intervene.
For instance Dahmer dissected dead animals, and became withdrawn and
antisocial in his youth. Could this have been a sign of the kind of person he
became?
Perhaps there are other signs of antisocial behaviour that we are not aware of that
indicate that the person will become a monster that we are unaware of.
Just blaming these acts on evil is an easy out.
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 1:52 PM
I have to wonder how well you looked into Dahmer's history before coming to that
conclusion. I suppose his family was normal (whatever that is) enough considering
that his family divorced. Otherwise his behaviour even at an early age showed signs
of what was to come.
http://crime.about.com/od/serial/a/dahmer.htm
irked - Aug 02, 2012 2:24 PM
course we should keep our eyes open for henious acts . But like in the o's case ,even
with us pointing them out there will be people like the PDLS's who will stand up for
him ! Lie for him ! Even take a bullet for him ! Yet even in your own comment you
pointed out that "normal" maybe something not known to you ! In other words there
is no rational explanation . Wait ....... that sounds familiar . Thats right Al said it
above ! Did I just use a quote ? lol...
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 3:58 PM
also. Explain how that could be considered "normal" behaviour.
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 4:13 PM
irked - Aug 02, 2012 6:06 PM
with and I were interested in Herbology ! Not to mention Archeology and Science in
general ! We did find animals and Burried them so we could see the skeletons when
we dug them up the next year ! She today is a Herbologist and we look back at those
days with fond memory ! We also played with BB guns and slingshots ! lol... I am
sure some quacks will act as if that means something other than basic knowledge .
By the way we did the Burial of dead animals in to our teens . We also donated
many of the fossils to an animal rescue for observation by the paying public ! To this
day you may visit it and see some of our first Specimens !lol... So ex what did you do
suckle at the troth of "I am better than you society" Better known as the Socialists
club ! Normal in America is being not like the o or any other Socialist !
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 7:18 PM
word of it.
Why? Well for starters you could explain what Herbology and animal skeletons
have in common.
And because I don't believe a single one of your stories.
irked - Aug 02, 2012 8:14 PM
you believe it !
ExToDResident - Aug 02, 2012 8:15 PM
jman99 - Aug 02, 2012 9:05 PM
day you may visit it and see some of our first Specimens !"
where and which ones?
irked - Aug 02, 2012 9:20 PM
for observation . The largest is a bear ! The smallest is either the turttles ,fish,
chipmunks, You name it ! It is a large collection that has animals from the forests in
the area ! Lets get back on topic . I am sure that Al is not happy with the side
tracking . Much less the attacks . So yes being a PDL or s is just like saying you are
evil ! lol...
jman99 - Aug 02, 2012 9:52 PM
irked - Aug 02, 2012 9:59 PM
jman99 - Aug 02, 2012 10:01 PM
I thought so.
irked - Aug 03, 2012 6:39 AM
aneuhauser - Aug 04, 2012 12:46 AM
Now I need to get some sleep.
irked - Aug 04, 2012 10:12 PM
all that have emotional problems . They project their feeling on to others ! I trult
believe that when you hit bottom your eyes might open and you will see how blinded
you are/were! Have a good night dubya .
MGarber - Aug 05, 2012 7:45 AM
what?
Tom Bal - Aug 05, 2012 5:40 PM
No, we're not one in the same. But considering you have an email exchange
going on with the evil, hate centered Christians from Merton (Hemmer, Hayett), it
wouldn't surprise me if they had managed to convince you otherwise.
Jeez JmanDubya after reading your posts you could be the poster child for this whole blog.
Ya sound like you’ve gone postal on us. What’s with you and your insults anyway?
Really I don’t care if your both people we’ve all gotten use to multi monikers.
Now calm down Neumann and leave Al alone
bamaphd - Aug 05, 2012 8:03 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting-sikh-reaction/
irked - Aug 06, 2012 9:29 AM
irked - Aug 06, 2012 11:27 AM
jman99 - Aug 06, 2012 11:55 AM
1) irked? WFB Resident is back to his old moniker?
2) "To this
day you may visit it and see some of our first Specimens !"
where and which ones?
3)Without the "where" the "what" is irrelevant because it can't be verified.
4)So just more BS then.
I thought so.
please explain how these four comment would require a reprimand such as this
" JMan and Dubya (one in the same?), please get help. I suggest anger management counseling. There have been other personal insults which I wish would stop. They add nothing to an overall interesting discourse. "
irked - Aug 06, 2012 3:24 PM
that the shooter in OC is a socialist neo- wanna be . So it shows how the last 3 mass
murderers in America are PDLS's !! Funny how that works . I am sure the rest are
also but I never saw it from that point of view before . lol...
Tom Bal - Aug 07, 2012 7:11 PM
Personally I like Irked better has a certain ring to it. Least he’s not hiding like yourself.
“What’s wrong with you why you so crabby “I’m Irked with the Liberal PDLS Ya I like the sound of that.
Plus I love the way he irks you goof balls.
You can make fun of his writing and spelling all you want but ya got to love the way He/she gets under your thin liberal skin,
Irked Yert and Sharpaxe Love to meet you all someday and throw Trucker in there too.
irked - Aug 07, 2012 9:05 PM
you think we could set something up with Al ,or Hemmer , or Hayett ? I personnally
will be gone from the 8th till the 20th. Plus the last week of this month ! That is the
23rd thru the 2nd .Taking holiday trips . After that I will be open most evenings.
ExToDResident - Aug 08, 2012 5:40 PM
I think Al needs more than just some sleep.
When I was caring for my mother before she passed away I was exhausted beyond
what I ever was before. I was to the point that even resting for an hour felt like I
had slept for five hours. I was trying to complete online college courses and was
having a hard time even concentrating on the subject. If it wasn't for my brother
taking over at night I probably would have died of exhaustion.
You should enlist some help Al. Perhaps the doctors you see might have an idea of
where you could find such help.
WFB resident - Aug 08, 2012 8:37 PM
WFB resident - Aug 08, 2012 11:20 PM
reaction when noticing people with no sharpened pencils in their pencil box .
MGarber - Aug 09, 2012 1:46 PM
WFB resident - Aug 09, 2012 3:56 PM
not doing anything . I actually enjoy your whining but what makes it great is that the
self proclaimed educated have to resort to defamation ! lol...
ExToDResident - Aug 09, 2012 6:53 PM
who you are referring too with this comment.
"It was more for a nervous reaction when noticing people with no sharpened
pencils in their pencil box."
Please explain the context of your comment for everyone's benefit.
WFB resident - Aug 18, 2012 11:00 AM
Do you understand what sharpened pencils refers to ? Please answer .
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 12:48 PM
anything.
I have a very good idea of what you meant by what you said, and I could continue
to interpret what you said/wrote into infinitely. However I want to hear/read what
you meant by what you said.
Perhaps you would also get a laugh out her condition when she passed away.
For your amusement; she was blinded by Macular Degeneration, could barely hear
out of one ear and was for the most part deaf. She had been crippled by Osteo and
Rhumetoid Arthritis to the point that her hands were useless and couldn't grip
anything. After she had fallen and broken her hip she needed a walker to get
around the house and a wheelchair if we went anywhere.
I hope your end of days is the same, that you are cut off from and isolated from
the world as slowly as my mother and that you linger in this condition for years.
Tom Bal - Aug 18, 2012 1:13 PM
the world as slowly as my mother and that you linger in this condition for years.
WOW Minty what a horrific thing to say all over a stinking blog not to mention how did he/she know.
Weird you ridiculed me when I asked you to leave my daughter out of our discussions but now that the world has spun 180 and the shoes on the other foot you show your true colors. So your mom suffered and you didn’t like a comment now you want this person to suffer also real nice attitude Bud.
When Duby and Jmann attack Al on here where were you then?
Do you realize what Al is doing for his wife the love of his life?
Because he believes in Jesus Christ those two have constantly gone after him.
There is something certainly wrong with you people terribly weak fabric.
I don’t care for you Minty but I certainly would never wish for your Mom to suffer the way she did. I just don’t harbor hate the way you seem to.
Either ask God for help or go seek a professional living with so much hate inside just isn’t good for ya. unreal
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 2:24 PM
by today I am not talking to Al at all
I have nothing but the deepest respect for Al and his blog. I havemade an effort to
remain civil out of respect for Al.
I will not apologize to irked/WFB resident for my comment to him. I have tried to
post comments trying to join the conversation but all I get is condescending
comments. Like the laughing out loud comment he made after I mentioned how I
cared for my mother.
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 3:45 PM
The implication of your comment was extremely apparent I was hoping that you would clarify what you meant by your statement and you aren't sorry for anything.
“Which part was hard to understand ?”
I asked for you to explain what YOU mean by what you said. But you apparently are comfortable with what I am interpreting the comment to mean.
What I take it to mean is that I am somehow dimwitted for either caring for my mother 24/7 in her final years and taking classes online while I was caring for her.
“Do you understand what sharpened pencils refers to ? Please answer .”
I get the point.
irked - Aug 18, 2012 4:07 PM
was reffering to your comments that YOU yourself have brought in to the
conversation . I pointed out with a question : “Which part was hard to understand ?”
That the pencil was not sharpened . You then asked a question that you apparently
did understand but makes others assume you are not able to comprehend . I am
being straight forward , no hiding . I was astounded that you asked such a simple
question . So since you do seem to have lead in your pencil . Lets get back on
subject . ( Just wondering if you caught that last one ?) lol...
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 4:53 PM
The jumble of words that you are trying to pass off as an explanation is garbled beyond my comprehension. Please explain what YOU MEAN in simple terms please, so that even an “educated” person like myself can understand.
Please elaborate on what this means; ... “I was reffering to your comments that YOU yourself have brought in to the conversation . I pointed out with a question : “Which part was hard to understand ?” That the pencil was not sharpened . You then asked a question that you apparently did understand but makes others assume you are not able to comprehend .”
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 5:40 PM
Your daughter has nothing to do with this, and I think Al would take offense to you calling his blog stinking. I said it because irked seems to believe that caring for someone in their final years is a laughing matter. I do not agree. He continues to evade explaining what he meant by what he said. That is all I ask; for him to explain in his own words what he means by what he said.
“When Duby and Jmann attack Al on here where were you then?
Do you realize what Al is doing for his wife the love of his life?
Because he believes in Jesus Christ those two have constantly gone after him.
There is something certainly wrong with you people terribly weak fabric.”
“...where were you then?” You sound like Hayett. First off, I am not the blog police, I did not volunteer for that job, and I feel absolutely no need to remind or reprimand others for their behavior in these blogs. Besides, there seems to be enough volunteers for the position of blog police already.
Also I have never commented or expressed an opinion of Al’s religious beliefs because, like the actions of others in these blogs, it is none of my business.
And third I have no doubts or illusions of what Al is doing for his wife, the love of his life. You cannot spend 24/7/365 caring for someone you love in their final years and not be affected by the experience.
ExToDResident - Aug 18, 2012 5:42 PM
Oh yea, you have never harbor hate like I do. Do you still want to go toe to toe? Ridiculous! Oh and a ditto on the “I don’t care for you” part.
“Either ask God for help or go seek a professional living with so much hate inside just isn’t good for ya. unreal"
You know, maybe I will “seek out a professional living with so much hate inside”. See what they have to say.
What is unreal is your feeble attempt at counseling; don’t quit your day job.
WFB resident - Aug 18, 2012 11:28 PM
it for you ! Please get on the topic . lol...
Tom Bal - Aug 19, 2012 9:04 AM
That’s a step in the right direction. Good luck.
And I mean that Sincerely.
WFB resident - Aug 19, 2012 9:37 AM
be going through . I will not comment about your comments for a little while .
ExToDResident - Aug 19, 2012 12:52 PM
So you cannot "explain" what you meant by a statement you wrote.
I still maintain that you, more than any other person posting to these blogs
deserves to be removed.
The only reason it doesn't happen is because of the conservative bias present in
these blogs. Where a "liberal" is removed because they are suspected of posting
under multiple names. While a "conservative" blatantly posts under multiple names
and is ignored.
WFB resident - Aug 19, 2012 2:26 PM
what other names I have . None were to mask anything . All were meant to come to
this blog and comment from different computers . My logic was that if on another
computer use another name . To me this makes sense . I am sorry that I think that
way . I used to think that Einstein was weird for cutting holes in to his door for his
dog . When the dog had puppies he cut as many holes as there were puppies .
Weird and strange, but his logic . I am sorry for being me . As for explaining my
statement . I have explained it but you refuse my answer to you . So I will not try
any more . Please lets just go back on topic ! If th one that parted was your mother .
I am sorry for mixing it up with other peoples problems . In stating it was your
spouse .
ExToDResident - Aug 19, 2012 3:31 PM
And Tom, you know what you can do with your "sincerity". I usually don't take
advice from people who have insulted me. My trust in their advice has been
compromised at that point so I cannot be sure of their intentions by dispensing
advice. If you want my advice; stop offering advice, because I don't need your
advice.
Let me explain it as simply as possible;
Iirked/WFB resident posted a lol (laughing out loud) after my post in which I talked
about caring for my mother and detailed my exhaustion from doing it alone.
I can only presume that it was in response to that post.
He then says "it was more for a nervous reaction when noticing people with no
sharpened pencils in their pencil box".
Since he refuses to explain what he meant by what he said/wrote I am left with my
interpretation.
See since I didn't actually write it I can only interpret what he meant. Only irked/
WFB resident actually knows what he meant by what he wrote since it originated in
his head.
So I am left with my interpretation, which I already explained. It would be
incredibly simple for him to explain what he wrote, but he refuses too.
I think it takes the lowest form of animal to laugh at someone working to
exhaustion caring for a loved one. Hence my wishes for irked WFB resident. Actually
other than my opinion of him as being vile and disgusting I harbor no actual "hate"
for irked WFB resident.
Personally I believe that irked/WFB is the most pretentious poster in these blogs .
I believe that everything he has told us about himself is made up and that every
single word of it is contrived from his imagination.
WFB resident - Aug 19, 2012 6:45 PM
chip on your shoulder . lol As for laughing at you . I was not laughing but after
seeing that you are not stopping and it is driving you crazy . Yes I am starting to
nervously laugh at you . Kind of like the old show with Murdoch as a nut . lol... My
comments before were not in response to what you thought before ! There comes
lead in to the eqaution again . lol...
MGarber - Aug 19, 2012 9:47 PM
1 - My heart goes out to you and your mother.
2 - WFB has never strung together a clear sentence, much less a multi-sentence explanation of ANYTHING, as long as Ive been around here. Im not sure he has the wherewithall to insinuate anything as abstract as what you are suspecting..
ExToDResident - Aug 20, 2012 12:03 AM
1- Thanks for the sentiment, she passed away in November 2009 and was interred
with dad at Wood. I think of them often and it pains me to remember her in the
condition she was in.
After caring for a loved one over an extended period of time it takes an extra effort
to remember them the way they were before they needed care. But it is worth the
effort.
2- Good point, I suppose you're right, I thought I would give it a try anyway; an
exercise in futility. Like I said before I visit these blogs to waste time.
Actually, other than having the lowest of opinions of irked/WFB; despise comes
close, I really don't hate him, he isn't worth spending that much energy on.
WFB resident - Aug 20, 2012 12:09 AM
ExToDResident - Aug 20, 2012 1:36 AM
purpose of suggesting that Al seek help with caring for the love of his life. I do not
recommend going it alone. Just a suggestion from someone who is speaking from
personal experience.
My apologies to any one who was of the impression that I was currently caring for
my mother it is not. I am pretty sure I referred to her in the past tense. Rest
assured I have moved on and am in the process of resuming my life, I did leave
the work force for three years. Completing her probate account without the use of
a lawyer was a big help.
WFB resident - Aug 20, 2012 7:45 AM
ExToDResident - Aug 20, 2012 1:46 PM
get the impression I would be wasting my time.
I will give you this though, think of it as a mental exercise for you.
The answer to your question is in what I wrote.
WFB resident - Aug 20, 2012 3:54 PM