By Way of Explanation/Guns Revisited
My atttention to this blog has been erratic of late, to say the least. Particularly with respect to the post on gun control, I have not serviced the comments with the attention they deserved. The reason is complex, but relates to the physical and emotional stresses of my caregiver role. At times I get quite tired and have no ambition to write, even though my head is still filled with ideas. There is a period in the day of two or three hours in the afternoon when Joan is down for her nap that I could come up to the computer room and sit down and write. But in fact I just plunk down in my easy chair and let the daily newspaper put me to sleep. I don't get enough sleep in a typical day.
So, don' t lose faith, my friends. I value your kind attention to my work in reading and commenting. I appreciate each and every comment, even those somewhat lacking in erudition or courtesy. I am feeling better and may now be able to again entertain you with my scribbling. At least I hope.
Pierre, I particularly regret not, as you put it, engaging in a give and take of ideas. With respect to the gun control issue, let me try to explain my position. Your argument is that if new restrictions save at least one life, it's worth it. No, it isn't. We are dealing with a constitutional issue, the 2nd Amendment. It clearly intends to protect the possession of arms by the citizenry. The reference to militia is in recognition of the fact that, even up to the Civil War, there was no national standing army or navy. War was simple in those days. You got a gun and, with your neighbors, shot at the enemy. (I know this is an oversimplification, but the principle is valid.) He shot back and whoever shot the best won the day. Thus, it was essential that the able-bodied citizenry had arms behind the door, ready to be taken up in defense of our fledgling nation.
Times have indeed changed. We have standing military that fights our wars. Citizen militias are an anachronism. But, it is in the Constitution, however irrelevent that part of the 2nd Amendment may be today. We tweak the Constitution to suit our present-day needs at our peril. It could very well lead to decimating the entire document, leaving us with a hollow document providing no protection of our rights against the predations of government "fixers". I think no one wants that.
There is a mechanism for changing the Constitution by amendment. It is somewhat tortuous and lengthy, deliberately so as to prevent knee-jerk modifications in response to an emotional issue. (Sound familiar?) If, however, the majority of states, 2/3rds to be exact, agree to a change, it can be done and not infrequently has been in the past. Simply put, if you don't like the constitutional citizen arms provision, then change it.
Oh, that will never happen, you say? Well then, I guess we'll have to live with it. Or maybe not. As a specific example, say Congress passes a so-called assault weapons ban, sometimes referred to as a ban on black-painted rifles. The problem is there are probably millions of black rifles already out there, so banning new sales will be largely ineffective. Then we have another tragic incident. The next step would logically be to confiscate the millions of assault weapons in private hands. Then there's an incident with Glock 17's, so we ban large-capacity magazines, leaving only Glock 10's. The same scenario repeats and existing private Glock 17's are confiscated. Need I go on? That is really the danger the NRA fears: gun confiscation. So do I.
I agree that the 2nd Amendment is somewhat outdated. But I fear that attempts to circumvent it with legislation could lead to a very undesirable paradigm. That is, working around constitutional provisions to suit immediate societal concerns. A slippery slope, indeed.
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129 Comments
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 21, 2013 1:18 PM
It always so good to hear from you. Your words remind me of my time spent on the Isle of Innisfree in the middle of Loch Gill in County Sligo, Ireland. Even more so – given we just celebrated the patron Saint’s Holiday last Sunday.
With a tip o’ the hat to WB Yeats -
“And I shall find some peace there,
For peace comes dropping slow.
Dropping from the veil of the morning,
To where the crickets sing.
Where midnight’s all a glimmer,
And noon a purple glow.
And evening full of linnet’s wings.”
And may peace be with you and Joan – mi Amigo.
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 21, 2013 2:18 PM
Tell me if I am wrong, but reading your post, I detected a strong subtext speaking to the notion of fear.
Fear of the "slippery slope." Fear if we give up right to own ALL guns, we will be giving up our right to own ANY guns. Fear that giving any ground on our interpretation of what the 2nd Amendment will lead to it being abolished.
The founding fathers, in their genius, produced a document reflecting the foundational principals they wanted for their new country. Recognizing that "times change", they made provisions for amendment.
But they also established the 3rd branch of government - the Judiciary. And one of their functions was to interpret the law - including the Constitution.
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 21, 2013 2:18 PM
The first is that those rights granted under the constitution are not without limits. That has been a long-established fact-in-law. As that is applied to the 2nd - the Supreme Court has always held that the Federal Government has the ability to enact and enforce reasonable gun control laws, without infringing on anyone's constitutional rights. For me, that pretty-much defines the constitutional issue.
The second relates to the fear issue. I own a 12 gauge shotgun I use for hunting. But it really doesn't matter what I use it for as long as it is for lawful purposes. I don't live in fear of the government coming to take it away from me.
Having followed this gun debate - I have yet to hear anyone suggest the confiscation of anyone's guns. But that is exactly what the NRA claimed, for political purposes, in TV ads run against President Obama. And not just in the last election, but his first as well. They did the same thing against Tom Barrett in his run against Scott Walker.
The NRA is a lobbying arm for the gun manufacturers in this country. Their main stock in trade is fear.
So my questions to you Al - Should there be ANY limits on weapons that you can own under the 2nd Amendment?
If so, what would you think reasonable?
WFB resident - Mar 21, 2013 7:58 PM
government go after
the assault weapons already in the possession at that time?"
Now lets take a look at that ! How many years did we survive as a Country until they
did the fist ban ? Please answer that harm ! Then how many years did it take from
the first infringement to this one ? Again please answer that harm ! Now taking in to
account of what is next . Since I led this horse ,will the horse be able to see the
point ? For somereason PDLS's are not able to think beyond a year ,maybe even a
month ! For if the reprocussion does not happen immediatly they assume it never to
happen !!! Just proving the short sightedness of PDLS's ! Or as I see them frogs in a
pot of water !!! lol...
ExToDResident - Mar 21, 2013 10:30 PM
“”The ATF employs about 5,000 men and women, approximately the same number of staff it had a decade ago; about half are special agents assigned to conduct criminal investigations. That’s a force about the size of the Harris County, Texas, Sheriff’s Department, and the same number of agents that ATF had in 1972 when it separated from the Internal Revenue Service and became its own bureau. In a letter to Vice President Joe Biden’s Gun Violence Commission, 108 academic researchers complained that the ATF’s funding was “stagnating” while the budgets of law enforcement agencies such as the FBI had seen “dramatic expansions.” Since 1972, the Drug Enforcement Administration’s staff has more than doubled, while the FBI’s is up by two-thirds. The ATF’s current budget of $1.15 billion is little changed from the $900 million it received 10 years ago.""
Cont
ExToDResident - Mar 21, 2013 10:31 PM
""Higgins and others intimately familiar with the agency’s history say the root of the problem is that ATF has no political constituency, no one invested in seeing it succeed and willing to stand up against those determined to see it fail. The success of ATF’s critics in reining in its authority is nowhere more evident than in the bureau’s appropriation statute, a two-page document that devotes 11 lines to describing the agency’s budget and the remaining 79 lines to proscriptions on its powers. Many of these “riders,” as they’re known, go to the agency’s most basic investigative functions (see chart). Two of the riders ban consolidation and computerization of records. One limits access and use of crime gun trace data, while another is designed to undermine the credibility of whatever trace data are released. One rider overturns ATF efforts to ban the import of large-capacity shotguns, which the agency found had no “sporting purpose.” Another overturned an ATF regulation to limit the import of dangerous weapons under a law originally designed to protect collectors of “curios and relics.”
Perhaps the most iconic of these riders is one that literally bars the oft-suggested transfer of ATF functions to any other agency such as the FBI or Secret Service, which have stronger reputations and more public support. “These riders are designed to keep the functions of ATF within that agency so they can be targeted for criticism,” says Adam Winkler, author of Gun Fight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America. “It’s helpful to have a clear villain.”””
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/11/12155/current-gun-debate-may-not-help-beleaguered-atf
WFB resident - Mar 22, 2013 2:31 AM
know that did you ? lol...
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 22, 2013 8:34 AM
Some very interesting and important points in your post.
But let's not forget - The ATF has been a political target for opponents of gun regulations for years. The ATF has been without a Director for the last 6 years.
Why you ask?
Because of our very own F. James Senselessbrenner. Under the cover of night, he slipped into the Patriot Act the requirement that the Director receive the consent of the US Senate. Knowing, of course, that requires the 60 vote hurdle.
Yes - The ATF Director has become the ONLY non-Cabinet level position requiring Senate confirmation.
And what did receive for that magical slight-of-hand?
The much coveted "Defender of Freedom Award" from the NRA.
What a pathetic bozo. This man belongs in the Museum of Natural History instead of the Congress of the United States of America.
http://www.nraila.org/media-center/2006/congressman-jim-sensenbrenner-%28r-wi%29.aspx
WFB resident - Mar 22, 2013 8:46 AM
do all the time ! They come up with this so-called "bad" aspect of this but refuse to
see the benefits ! Now if you wanted to admit that all regulation has bad impacts I
would agree with you . But snce you are PDLS's you will not be able to acknowledge
this . So you can complain all you want but what Sensenbrennor fixed is far more
important than your little outlook on this issue ! lol...
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 22, 2013 10:40 AM
I apologize Al. I should not have said that on your blog.
WFB resident - Mar 22, 2013 10:58 AM
benefits that Sensenbrennor made for us ? Stop avoiding your discussion just
because you fail at looking at the whole picture again norte ! Are you so intrenched
in your wanted beliefs that you are not able to see the benefits norte ?
ExToDResident - Mar 22, 2013 11:34 AM
No, I do not see a benefit to having the ATF director the only cabinet member appointment requiring a Senate confirmation. Please explain why that would be of any benefit.
Please explain just what Sensenbrenner fixed by sneaking this requirement into the Patriot Act.
That is if you are at all possibly able to put together an argument.
Pierre, I posted pretty much the same information soon after the Sandy Hook shooting. But it was lost in the shuffle.
ExToDResident - Mar 22, 2013 11:41 AM
Gun crimes are less than 20 years ago! Crimes are decreasing! Woooohoooo!!!
Ok then, we should just layoff all the police departments and get rid of all law enforcement agencies since we will not need them anymore, crime is going away.
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 22, 2013 12:04 PM
That botched ATF sting in Milwaukee?
Who was the first politician to pounce on that?
You got it - F. James Senselessbrenner.
Al - Would see that as an indication that our Congressman is a complete hypocrite?
ExToDResident - Mar 22, 2013 1:04 PM
I await your explanation of what it was exactly that Sensenbrenner fixed.
Truth is Sensenbrenner didn’t fix anything and just increased government bureaucracy with his addition to the Patriot Act. Something that Republicans have proven themselves time and time again to be so fond of doing.
ExToDResident - Mar 22, 2013 1:08 PM
Instead of being hobbled by regulations that undermines their ability to enforce the law.
ExToDResident - Mar 22, 2013 1:58 PM
Please explain what the benefits are to requiring a non-cabinet position to be confirmed by the Senate.
Explain if you would, or should I say; if you could or if you can.
aneuhauser - Mar 22, 2013 4:16 PM
Background checks to prevent unstable individuals and the criminal element from purchasing--note I did not say "possessong") guns. However, lists of gun owners, i.e. permanent registration, would be a necessary step along the road to confiscation. Banning specific weapons is futile. Banning on machine guns, 60mm mortars, 105mm howitzers and F-15E Strike Eagles is reasonable given their propensity for mass destruction. As in all rights, reasonable (there's that word again) restrictions are O.K., but must be applied with great care.
KHarma: The assault weapons ban was deemed ineffective and so was allowed to die a quiet death. Confiscation would indeed be a logistical nightmare, something that did not stop the British or Australians. It's not out of the realm of possibility. This is what the NRA fears. The NRA is primarily supported by its dues-paying members, like me. The gun industry buys ads in its three magazines.
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 22, 2013 4:40 PM
Straight from the SCOTUS website -
"EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW"-These words, written above the main entrance to the Supreme Court Building, express the ultimate responsibility of the Supreme Court of the United States. The Court is the highest tribunal in the Nation for all cases and controversies arising under the Constitution or the laws of the United States. As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution.
And the next paragraph ices it Al -
The Supreme Court is "distinctly American in concept and function," as Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes observed. Few other courts in the world have the same authority of constitutional interpretation and none have exercised it for as long or with as much influence.
"Constitutional interpretation" -
You are a gifted wordsmith Al - But that seems pretty clear to me.
Pierre Del Norte - Mar 22, 2013 4:58 PM
http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/constitutional.aspx
With regard to recent SC cases - you may be referring to the D.C. v. Heller decision, wherein they held individual's right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, and that would extend to handguns.
"However, they also held that like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited."
The decision went on - "The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
There you have it Al - Your Supreme Court in action.
So, somewhere between hand guns and fully-automatic assault rifles is the untested "gap".
Do you agree with the SC holding that the Federal government has the clear right to prohibit the ownership of fully-automatic assault weapons without infringing on anyone's 2nd Amendment rights?
If yes, I would appreciate your reasoning.