Atheists support torture.

Jim: The hypocrisy of the left never ceases to amaze me. To be able to justify murdering partially-born live babies during partial birth abortion (as the so-called "right" of the mother) to ridiculous outrage at using waterboarding against a very select few terrorist captives to extract vital information - to save American lives? Am I missing something? What I think is missing is simple common sense. Something many liberals seem to lack.

Waterboarding has been defined by our government (and Democrats included!) as an "enhanced interrogation technique." Of course, we may all define torture in different ways. Torture could be defined as something as simple as reading liberal blogs on the livinglakecountry.com website. Torture could be defined as reading liberal comments to conservative blogs! Torture could be watching B.O. ruin the great country of America and having to wait 3 plus years to vote him out of office. Everyone has their own views of what torture is.

However, keep in mind we are fighting a ruthless enemy - an enemy that wants to murder us and actually killed thousands of innocent people on 9/11. We need to use all the tools available to us to keep our country safe. It is too bad that B.O. and many lefties don't agree. Who cares about national security when there are more important things to do - like destroy capitalism and replace it with socialism?

Amy…what also is not right, but is if you are a liberal who doesn’t understand our freedom and our constitutions, is our liberal democrats have already found Bush and others guilty without an ounce of proof but Pelosi and all the other democrats are innocent. And we haven’t even had a chance to read Bush and Cheney’s memos, but we watch daily Nancy Pelosi lying and trying to get out of her own mess with waterboarding. What a disgrace to our country and our constitution. Liberals are killing America and they don’t even know it!

My oh my!



Liberal atheists bash us Christians saying that we are for torture by using a study that polled 174 Christians, and looked like the poll used water boarding as the “torture technique,” but this poll shows that atheists are not only for real torture, they believe terrorists have more rights than American citizens. So now we have liberals plus atheists who side with terrorists. But that I guess is nothing new. hey.

Dammit, Jim, I'm an Atheist, not a legal scholar! (sorry...just saw the new Star Trek film, and was filled with its joie de vie...).

Jim, you are painting your canvas with too wide a brush, and coloring within the wrong numbered circles. Some atheists support torture, some don't. Some Christians support torture, some don't. I put forth that torture is incompatible with the American way of life and its principles. You may define waterboarding as "enhanced interrogation"...I may define Hitler as a radical ethnic nationalist....but that doesn't change the fact that waterboarding is torture and Hitler was a genocidal maniac...a rose, by any other name....

Victor...OK, but did you make this same comment (complaint) on Jacobs or MC's blog post when they bashed Christians by saying we condone torture???

@Jim: I written many pieces about the abuses of Islam over the past year. Perhaps you are unaware. Plus, if Pelosi and other democrats did sign on off Bush's policy of waterboarding -– then I am for full prosecution of them as well. We are in agreement it seems. These people are hypocrites. Also, I have written about that too many times. In fact if you check my blog out, you'll notice I quote a prominent atheist and intellectual over the issue of hypocrite democrats. I am in full agreement with Susan Jacoby.

However, let me explicit: When Muslims torture or hack off heads they are grossly wrong and against everything in what we mean about human rights. When the United States tortures by waterboarding and other methods, the U.S. is grossly wrong too. It's why American should not torture by any means.

However, since you brought it up. There are no tenets to atheism. Atheism is simply no belief in God/gods. Atheists are diverse people. The reason why the Pew Poll showing that "the more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey" (Source: CNN) is news, is because religion it is said to make one be more moral. It does not.

Your little piece here is a gotcha piece – and that's fine, it's your blog after all. But again it is also inaccurate. I'll explain.

1) The "Paliban Daily" is a spoof site. If it was for real, do you think they would post an article with the likes of "Pray Carrie Prejean Beats Child Porn Rap." Really? And think about the name of the site. Paliban and compare it too Taliban. It's a big joke and parody that we've known about in the atheist community since about November/December.

2) The article which you reference is likewise a joke, a spoof, a parody. Follow the link from the article to the CNN site. It does not say "Atheists" support torture. Read the whole article.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html

3) What the hyperlinked article does say is that 42% of non-churched, BUT CHRISTIANS are also as more likely to support torture. IMO, what really this poll shows that the rejection of waterboarding and other like methods comes down to politics, not religious belief.

Jim, "The Paliban Daily" is written as spoof on the right-wing christian-fundamentalist point of view. Great parody is often distinguishable from the real thing.

So, I have to inform you, that you've been suckered by you rown gotcha moment here. It's okay. We can have a good laugh and move on.

Victor….I read your comment with great interest. However, there are two fundamentally wrong statements that you made. You have already found Bush and others guilty but the MSM has not found Pelosi and the other three democrats, who knew in great detail about waterboarding and how many times it was and will be used, guilty at all. Not one of these democrats spoke up to stop it but Congress and the Senate had the right to stop this immediately. No one is guilty until proven guilty. And Obama knows this because waterboarding, the way the US performs waterboarding and other EIT’s, is not classified as torture. You can’t go back and change that rule and then charge someone. Unless you are a liberal judge. Then you can do anything you want. Like releasing child molesters with only 60 day jail terms.



If you are 100% correct in your assumption what good does it do us, or the enemy that you want us to apologize to, by trying to pin this on a past President who has not one ounce of power but then not go after those still in power who did approve waterboarding? Or in your words, “torture.” Pelosi, Rockefeller, and two more prominent democrats all sat in the 40 plus briefings from the CIA. If any of this is true, shouldn’t the US remove Pelosi and Rockefeller for their part by not taking a stance against torture (I only call it torture for your example) when either one could have stopped this and you and the rest of the liberals have already found Bush guilty? Removing them from power, since the liberal MSM and the democrats in Washington have found waterboarding to be torture, thus satisfying the hate for Bush and others, is the right thing to do. Why not Victor? Going after Bush does nothing. Go after those still in power.



Second, you use a CNN poll, listed as the top two or three liberal msm outlets, and tell me that it's accurate but mine, which is not from Rush, Ann, FOX, is not? The polling company I quoted polled nearly 800 people, mostly atheists, but the CNN poll got their stats from only 175 Christians (thanks BillJ).



http://www.usnews.com/blogs/god-and-country/2009/04/30/poll-most-evangelicals-and-catholics-condone-torture-in-some-instances.html

Actually, the poll questioned 742 Christians. It states that "Data from a Pew Research Center survey conducted April 14-21, 2009, among 742 American adults. Other religious groups are not reported due to small sample sizes." That would include atheists. I think it is safe to say, that atheist, don't go to church.

I'd like to know where BillyJ get's his number from? I can only guess he's referring to the 188 republicans of the study who were sampled. This number refers to sampling error and not number of Christians vs. non-Christians.

Here't the full brief by Pew who did the research:

"Amid intense debate over the use of torture against suspected terrorists, public opinion about this issue remains fairly stable. Currently, nearly half say the use of torture under such circumstances is often (15%) or sometimes (34%) justified; about the same proportion believes that the torture of suspected terrorists is rarely (22%) or never (25%) justified.

The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted April 14-21 among 742 adults interviewed in English and Spanish on landlines and cell phones, finds little change in opinions about the use of torture against suspected terrorists.

There are continuing partisan differences over the use of torture under these circumstances. Comparable percentages of Republicans (15%) and Democrats (12%) believe that the torture of suspected terrorists to gain important information is often justified, but twice as many Republicans as Democrats say torture is sometimes justified (49% vs. 24%). Similarly, while nearly identical percentages of Republicans and Democrats say torture under these circumstances is rarely justified, 38% of Democrats believe the torture of suspected terrorists is never justified, compared with 14% of Republicans.

A majority of independents (54%) believe that the use of torture against suspected terrorists is often (19%) or sometimes (35%) justified. That is up somewhat from February, when 44% of independents said torture was at least sometimes justified.

As in the past, there are only modest demographic differences in attitudes about the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Roughly half of men (51%) and women (47%) believe that the use of torture is at least sometimes justified. Similarly, age and educational differences in these opinions are relatively small; however, a greater percentage of those 65 and older (33%) than those younger than 65 (23%) say torture should never be used."

Notice, again, there is nothing about atheism. Also notice, that it sites party affiliation. Democrats are more likely to not support waterboarding and torture.

http://people-press.org/report/510/public-remains-divided-over-use-of-torture


Again, the Paliban Daily is a joke site. You were suckered Jim. You're only making matter much worse for yourself.

MC...The use of torture against terrorists: White Evangelical Protestants, 52%. Poll sampling, 174.


Those that believe terrorists should have more rights than me and my American friends: 58%. Polled, nonchurh attendees and nearly 800 were sampled. You're not trying to tell me that you go to church, are you?




Waterboarding, US style, is not torture according to even your democrats who approved this (Pelosi and Co.). Hard to debate with any reasoning or facts when not one of these liberals made any attempt to stop it.

@ Still it doesn't change the fact that Pew Poll (according to your post) show that atheist support torture. Wrong. The Paliban Daily is a joke, parody site. The Pew Poll shows the party line division and that the more you go to church the more likely you are to support waterboading/torture ... i.e. the more you practice your Christianity the more likely you are for torture.

At least we know agree that the Pew Poll is not about atheist, but christian.

Again enough with the strawmen. I don't believe terrorists should have more rights. No one believes that - only these mythical liberals in your head.

btw, Jim: The Pew Poll never asked those 742 Christians if they believed that "Terrorist should have more rights."

That's your spin and innovation.

<p>Matt…let’s both get real on this issue. Too many of yours, Jacobs, Victor’s, etc. come from very politically motivated organizations as well. CNN for one. When I use a poll it’s worthless, but you want me to believe polls like CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, ABC, etc. However, I never use a poll from Rush, or Ann, and rarely have I used one from FOX News on subjects this sensitive. Its how you, or who, defines torture. </p>
<p>I read your comment right before I went to church. After the sermon I asked some of my friends, who happen to be Christian, what they thought about torture and waterboarding. I know, not real scientific but a good start with Christians who go to church. When I asked them (one of our elders reads our blogs and made a comment as to how much laughter he gets from your many blog posts) if they thought the use of waterboarding, while a Dr. was present to make sure the thug is not harmed, was good for certain terrorists, most agreed. However, when I asked if the US should torture (I included cutting throats on TV, cutting off fingers, removing body parts while still alive), not one Christian agreed. It depends on how these pollsters put the question.</p>
<p>Let’s now take a look at an unbias poll which went as far as using assassination of terrorist and torture. The below data may just shock you because a large majority (two-thirds) &nbsp;agree with assassinating terrorists who have valuable information and nearly half agree with real torture of certain terrorists. And to add insult to injury, nearly 60% polled (both Gallup and Rasmussen) don’t want Obama to do a criminal investigation against Bush and a less than half want Gitmo closed! Plus an overwhelming amount polled said Obama damaged our national security!! Isn’t all this the real crime here and not waterboarding three people that gave us information that may have saved your life and your brothers too?</p>
<p>Here’s the Gallup polls:</p>
<p>Assassination to Combat Terrorism</p>
<p>Gallup asked Americans whether they would be willing or unwilling to have the U.S. government assassinate known terrorists if the government deemed it necessary to the fight against terrorism. About two-thirds (65%) say they would support this action and a third (33%) would not. That figure has dropped since a poll taken the month after Sept. 11, 2001, when 77% of Americans said they would support the assassination of known terrorists.</p>
<p>Men are more likely than women to support assassinating known terrorists: 71% of men would be willing to have the government do that, while 59% of women would. </p>
<p>When President George W. Bush declared the war on terrorism, he explicitly said that the war was not only against terrorists, but also against countries that harbor terrorists. Gallup asked Americans whether they would be willing to have the government assassinate leaders of countries who harbor terrorists. Little more than a third (37%) of Americans are willing to support that idea; a majority (59%) oppose it. As with the other question, the change from 2001 is evident; shortly after the 9/11 attacks, 52% of Americans were willing to support the assassination of a leader who harbored terrorists.</p>
<p>April 27, 2009 Gallup Poll: Slim Majority Wants Bush-Era Interrogations Investigated. Majority says use of harsh techniques on terrorism suspects was justified</p>
<p>January 21, 2009 Gallup Poll: More Americans say the prison at Guantanamo Bay military base in Cuba should not be closed (45%) than say it should (35%), but 20% have no opinion on the matter. </p>
<p>February 12, 2009: No Mandate for Criminal Probes of Bush Administration. While no more than 41% of Americans favor a criminal investigation into any of the matters, at least 6 in 10 say there should be either a criminal investigation or an independent probe into all three. This includes 62% who favor some type of investigation into the possible use of torture when interrogating terrorism suspects, 63% who do so with respect to the possible use of telephone wiretaps without obtaining a warrant, and 71% who support investigating possible attempts to use the Justice Department for political purposes.</p>

@Jim: It stills seems that you are ignoring the fact that the Paliban Daily is a joke site and that it was Christians, of different denominates who were asked in Pew Poll what they thought of torture. The CNN article is about the Pew Poll. (The poll cited the Paliban Daily.) And so is the Poll which you cited in the USA article. Same exact poll. Pew did the polling.

So tell me again, which poll of yours is – and I don't care who it is from, that shows that atheist support torture? Which? This is a matter of accuracy, because, in fact, there are some right wing atheists (yes they exist) that I do know of who support torture - i.e. waterboarding etc. They, like me and you, are at a political schism over the issue.

However, this post: "Atheist Support Torture" is misleading, inaccurate, and a lie.

Until you address this issue, anything else you post are red herrings which are highly irrelevant.

Matt…do you think you are going to get anyone to believe that in the poll from those that don’t attend church, there were no atheists? Come on Matt! Nothing here is inaccurate. If atheists believe terrorists have more rights than us Americans, than they side with terrorists. Terrorism supports torture. In fact, it's one of their two top weapons they use to destroy free civilizations that don't succumb to Islam. Do you believe terrorists should have more rights than us Americans?



I see you not only didn’t read the URL from Paliban, you obviously don’t know that they use Pew as well. I also see you didn’t even bother to read my last comment that included more detailed facts and polls from Rasmussen and Gallup.



Here’s what’s in the Paliban poll URL.



Poll - Atheists Support Terrorists



April 30, 2009: In a newly-released poll, it is shown that 58% of Americans who avoid church services support the “rights” of terrorists over Americans. We can’t say we’re surprised.



The recent Pew Research Center poll studied 742 Americans. Of these were separated out “white evangelicals”, “white mainstream Protestants”, “white Catholics”, and “religiously unaffiliated”.
They were asked how often they attend services, and then asked, “Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?” Torture was not defined, but may be understood from recent news reports to include pouring water onto their faces, making them stand still, and dressing them in itchy wool sweaters. Basically, making them uncomfortable.



Of those who attend services seldom or never, only 42% thought making terrorists uncomfortable was often or sometimes justified! 40% of the “unaffiliated” group shared this position.



We see here that the absence of God in their lives has led to these sad creatures favoring terrorist monsters over their fellow man. How can anyone not find this incredibly disturbing? We were disgusted at the immorality of these so-called “people”.



We’re also pleased to announce that more than 6 out of 10 white evangelicals believe that the safety of Godly Christian Americans outweighs the comfort of enemy combatants.

@Jim: I did read your last post. It is irrelevant. The Gallup poll is irrelevant. You can't just move the goal posts from atheists to liberals back to atheists once your initial argument is shown to be false. Again and again, the Paliban Daily is what is relevant and it is a spoof site. Don't you get it? What the Paliban Daily is saying is that if you are a Christian and you don't support waterboarding, you are an atheist. Get it? Like I said before, the Paliban Daily is written from the perspective of a right-wing Christian. Anything that is not a right-wing christian is an atheist. Get it? Get it Jim?

As I said before, the only atheists and liberals who think that 'terrorists should have more rights' (whatever that means) are the ones in your imagination. The strawmen you build up and tear down repeatedly. I support human rights period. I don't give a damn who you are. I don't give a damn if your Christian terrorist like Timothy McVeigh or James David Addkisson or a Muslim terrorist like KSD - treatment to America's prisoners is applied consistently without discrimination.

Your one to talk about people at your church laughing me in your straw pole that btw supports the conclusions Pew Poll that the more you go to church to more you support torture.

Oh you didn't see that did you.

If you like you can come to my site and you can read about some Christians who finally did come out against waterboarding and torture over the weekend.

Anyway, I am done here.

Jim: The hypocrisy of liberals can be highlighted in the following story:
(this is from MSNBC (so libs will believe it) on May 9, 2009):

"A joint U.S.-Afghan investigation confirmed that an unspecified number of civilians died in a southern Afghan battle, but the initial findings released Saturday appeared to blame Taliban militants who used locals as “human shields.”

Heavy fighting took place in two villages in Farah province over several hours Monday and Tuesday, a joint statement said. It said U.S. forces responded to a call for help from Afghan forces, and that militants attacked the troops from several locations around the villages."

No complaints or outrage from lefties concerning the Taliban using innocent people as "human shields." Yet we keep getting subjected to the same crap from the liberals about the horrors of waterboarding three al-queda terrorists. Where is the logic? What do they really care about? Less than a handful of terrorist thugs having water dripped on their heads for a short period or our enemies using innocent people as shield to take bullets for them?

Oh, that's right! I forgot. In liberal-land, America = bad, countries and people that hate America = good.

All - Your all missing the real argument here laid out plainly in Jim's thesis:

"All Congressional Liberals that go to church are atheists and thus support torture more than conservative christians who go to church." I.e. 180 degree spin.

Mind you that the poll does not sperate by political beleif, it's something that your inteterjecting into the poll, so you can smear your liberal arch-enemies and re-define torture.

Jim and Amy you have mastered moral relativism, Congrats.

Also, I love how you had to twist yourself out of the torture topic and then try to say that Atheists support terrorist's! It's so classic.

Also, that 58% number does not seperate Atheists out, it just said those who don;t attend chruch services, so you'll have to add millions of lazy christians to that 58% list who out-weigh athesits in the USA.

One more thing; Islamic terrorists want to kill people and not torture them, terror is their weapon to get a poltical/religious outcome.

Torture is a weapon of terror to excract information.

Please prove that forced simulated drowning is not torture?

Jim - And you said it just their, you do nto consider MAtt, Victor, etc... Human Beings, "We were disgusted at the immorality of these so-called “people”.

You sir, think you are a superior human being, because you have"god" in your life, and people without god are subhuman.

Yet, Islamic terrorists and the Talibanm have god in their lives, do they deserve more respect than athiests?

Jim - You went from Atheists support torture, the title of your blog to this, "If atheists believe terrorists have more rights than us Americans, than they side with terrorists. To atheists support terrorists.

What is Jim? Couldn't prove your original premise, now your trying to slither out of it by changing your thesis?

This is reality: You support the use of water torture by the United States against those "so-called people" known as suspected islamic terrorists who have god in their lives. While trying to legitimize your support by trying to bring down your political enemies.

Matt… so even the Gallup polls and the Rasmussen polls are wrong but yours are right. My God, what next! However, I don’t think you believe in torture and neither do I. But what I do know about you is the function of a rhetorical atheists, like yourself, is to deflect attention from the goal of the preceding statement. Or in this case, the proceeding comments that don’t support your fallacies.



Amy's comment says it all. When will you liberals ever realize how this war on terror started and who condones and practices real torture. Why no outrage over these human shields that all terrorist use like the Palestinians, the Taliban, and al Qaeda? Why not go to the Jeff Blackwell approved International Courts and take this energy to start some community organizing to fight real terror and torture? Ha Matt?

Jacob...I never said or ever implied such a thought. I have more love and respect for you and your brother than you two will ever imagine. It's why I pray for both of you. Not trying to insult or be arrogant. I do pray for you so I can't harbor such evil thoughts. Islam terrorist hold those ideologies. Not me, sir!!

Test---

Worse than Obama is the liberal media that protects this guy. He has screwed up so bad yet the media looks the other way. It is criminal what media like MSNBC, CNN, ABC, most print media and others have done. They are helping to destroy our country!