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Let Wisconsin voters decide if we want a light rail choo-choo!
Looks like Obama & Co. have promised Wisconsin $823 million taxpayer dollars via the Stimulus Bill to start up a light rail project between Milwaukee, Madison and Chicago, with a train station to be built in Watertown. Whoopee!
All the newspapers and media have been reporting this story with the slant that everyone is happy - everyone wants this. Very little mention is given to the opposition. The media just assumes that we taxpayers are all delighted!
What I'd like to know is why the taxpayers of Wisconsin aren't being given the opportunity to even vote on whether or not we WANT such an expensive project in our state? It has been proven over and over - in states with cities much larger - that light rail has been a total disaster. Light rail in Seattle, for example, isn't a roaring success. Seattle is experiencing low ridership, to the tune of costing $179 million dollars per mile when calculating number of passengers vs. cost! And Seattle is a much bigger city than Milwaukee, with a population actually capable of supporting light rail! Even in Denver, where people voted for light rail in 2004, the city is now running out of money for the project. Recently, Denver voters were presented with a proposed sale tax increase in order to continue to fund the stalled light rail project. Guess people don't want to ride the trains in large numbers like many assume they will. And once the trains are up and running, they start losing even more money. Yet, Seattle and Denver are much larger cities then Madison or Milwaukee. And even they are finding out light rail is more expensive than expected. More costly to taxpayers as time goes by. After the novelty has worn off, so do the ridership levels. Milwaukee and Madison have even smaller populations than Denver or Seattle. Those two cities, as well as others throughout the country, are already experiencing few riders, high costs, and taxpayers just keep on payin' and payin' and payin'...... Is that what we can expect? Yes.
So, what are we missing here? Do we need to be whacked over the head with a hammer to realize that light rail will be an economic disaster for our state? A guaranteed money-loser? Face it -hardly anyone will ride the darn thing! Currently it takes about 45 minutes to get from Milwaukee to Madison in a car. Light rail won't cut down on travel time. The fastest speed supposedly will be 110 miles per hour (wonder why this project is even being called "high speed" light rail?). There will be stops along the way, adding to travel time, between Milwaukee and Madison. Given that people will first need to get to the train (by car, perhaps?), then once upon arrival have to find transportation to get to their final destination (by taxi or bus, perhaps?)- how much time and cost is saved? The honest answer has to be - NONE?!?
What we have here is a government - and state - intent on throwing away money - the taxpayers money. We taxpayers are being forced to pay for something that most of us do not want! Recent studies suggest that we taxpayers may end up paying passenger costs around $43 each way for this boondoggle! Imagine if this project wasn't going to be subsidized by taxpayers - how much an individual ticket would cost? Maybe then all the pro-light railers would have second thoughts - having to pay for their light rail experience all on their own. Just so they can sit and read a book rather than drive somewhere.... And haven't we said "no" to this before???
Even some in the People's Republic of Madison have chimed in that the prospect of building a light rail system is ridiculous. No one will use it. Busses in Madison aren't even being used now. Madison Metro is in the red year after year, just like the bus system in Milwaukee. Ridership in Milwaukee is so low that fares recently had to be raised - still not enough to even cover the expense of the bus system itself! And look at that glowing example of Amtrak - a train system entirely propped up year after year by the government to the tune of billions of taxpayer dollars, since it is such a money-loser.
So, with unemployment at a record high, job losses in the millions during 2009, and no end in sight, our government bestows upon us $823 million dollars for: A CHOO-CHOO? Why not give the funds to BadgerCare? or even better - don't spend the money! The Stimulus dollars don't even really exist anyhow - the money hasn't been printed yet! Our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren haven't started paying for the Stimulus Bill! Let's REALLY start saving and REALLY cut that deficit! Hasn't President Obama said that cutting the deficit and spending should be top priorities? Remember about the "no earmarks" promise? Well, a light rail train IS an earmark. It is not a necessity, but rather a "want" of certain individuals. During these poor economic times, can we really afford the luxury of "wants?"
Let's put this to a vote in November. Contact your state and local representatives to express your wishes. Put an end to the damage that Governor Doyle and his liberal cohorts continue to try to reek upon this state. We can stop this train wreck before it leaves the station.
We "derailed" Obama's plans for socialized medicine - we can do the same with his plans for socialized transportation!
Amy - Have you ever e-mailed Erin, Scott Peteren, and LLC to get Matt of "Hypatian Shore" banned and kicked off the Blogsite?
Yes or NO
Go light rail, I luv trains!!!
Jim - Have you ever e-mailed Scott Peterson, Erin, of LLC to get Matt of Hypation Shore, banned and kicked off the blogsite? yes or No
Go light rail?
Jim - Have you ever e-mailed Scott Peterson, Erin, of LLC to get Matt of Hypation Shore, banned and kicked off the blogsite? yes or No
Matt - Do you remeber how we got discussion guidlines in the first Place?
When bloggers still had control over poster content, "Jim let BillyJ threaten me physically". Jim had ever opputruntiy to go in and clean it up and delete the message and tell BillyJ that that ws going to far.
Jim did nothing, but let the violent threat stand.
I complained to Erin, but at first she did nothing. I pushed again and finally she came to my side and created the discussion rules.
Jim, via a proxy, threatened me personally. He was not banned for those actions.
I just want to know is there anything “public” you are not against
Jacob Pickard: Didn't you just write a blog called: "Posters MUST enforce the LLC discussion guidelines?" And in that blog, you wrote the following:
"Don't stray from the topic of the blog or submit pointless comments."
"Don't post personal attacks and insults; threats; ethnic, racial, religious or sexual slurs; or otherwise engage in hateful conversation."
"If you see comments that don't abide by our discussion guidelines, please let us know by clicking the "report abuse" link on the blog or e-mailing our online staff."
And here's a good one - from you, Jacob:
"I am cleaning up my act; I am disgusted with my behavior, but I still plan to keep up the fight."
Judging from your comments to my blog, you need to read your own blog over again - maybe several times.
Onlyoneme: The blog topic is about light rail. Light rail is not needed in the state of Wisconsin and will only serve to sap more tax dollars from our already over-burdened taxpayers. Care to comment on that? The actual topic of the post?
Amy - I am breaking 1 rule right now and that is straying off the blog topic.
Do you care to answer any of my questions in public, you only get one chance.
I will comment on your blog if you answer my question.
Is there anything “public” you are not against?
Amy, does it make a difference that the project is already paid for from the stimulus funding? Doesn't it make you happy that this project is going to be going back to the people instead of the banks?
Onlyoneme: I do not mind my taxpayer dollars going to fund our military in the name of national defense. I don't mind my taxpayer dollars going for the upkeep of the roads, bridges, and highways that form our infrastructure. I don't mind my taxpayer dollars being used to fund police and fire departments. Necessary programs that keep our society functioning and safe.
I don't approve of my taxpayer dollars going to fund social programs that simply perpetuate societal ills.
Dustin Klein: "Paid for from the stimulus funding" - huh? Did you know that the money we are blowing with the stimulus bill hasn't even been printed yet, Dustin? Our government continues to spend, spend, spend - and it's all money we DON'T have. The government doesn't create money - the money the government spends comes from the taxpayers. How in the world is the light rail project "going back to the people." If you mean we - the people - will be saddled with the debt for generations, then I guess you are correct.
Jake...take your comments and concerns to the LCR. They have your answer. Amy and I do not and will not debate this with you anymore. You have been given the answers and the truth from the LCR and me as to why You and your brother get in trouble while posting on the LLC blog site. This has been discussed too many times and we are all sick of your antics. Now please move on so we can debate the current events.
Amy, first I want to thank you for answering my question, I really didn’t think you would.
I can agree with your take on Light Rail, it has been a issue for some time now, I remember hearing about the debate in the past and quite frankly thought the issue was dead, apparently, it isn’t. I think it should have died a while ago, or with the last effort to get it passed. Part of the desire for the light rail system comes from the nostalgia from the past that Dustin mentioned. However, at that time horse and buggy were the means of travel, for larger distances rail was used. The average speed of a horse at a walk is 3 to 4 mph at that speed it takes 20 minutes for a horse to travel 1 mile. In short a light rail made sense at that time, I don’t believe it does in this day and age.
It should also be noted that it is not an immediate project that it will take some time to layout its route. It is obvious that a light rail system could not follow along the I-94 corridor because many of the grades along the corridor are too steep for rail. Properties will have to be bought or seized to create a corridor for the rail system to follow.
There is no public transportation available to most (if not all) of the villages and towns outside Milwaukee. So anyone accessing the rail would have to drive to the station. In addition, would need a ride from the station to their destination, just as Amy stated in her blog
To estimate ridership at this time would only be a guess as to whether it would rise or fall . However once the price of gas goes back up (only a matter of time) the ridership will increase once again, lie they were when gas prices were over $4.00 a gallon.
Personally, I doubt if I would ever ride it, I have yet to ride public transportation, except for a ride from Millar Park to the state fair. I am reluctant to suggest that Milwaukee County give up its busses, and leave the people riding it now to their own means of transportation.
Amy- Dustin is right. The project is using money from the stimulus bill that has already been proportioned from Congress for exactly this type of a project. So it won't cost anymore people in Wisconsin a dime. And how much do you actually speed to get from here to Madison in 45 minutes?!?!?! Already having two speeding tickets myslef, I now HAVE to drive the legal speed limit, and it takes almost 90 minutes to get to Madison from Milwaukee.
Andy...is it worth our tax payer money (I know you are young, but can you tell me at any time with any project where our Government has had their hands on that didn't overrun with costs? And guess who pays! Yup! You ad me) to save a few minutes for a train ride from Mad to Milw? And how long will it take you to drive to that station too and from?
Sorry about your tickets, but it's not my fault or a reason why we need light rail. I'm for light rail, but not now and not in this economy. We have more pressing needs than another gov. run org.
"So it won't cost anymore people in Wisconsin a dime" ????
The population of the areas this system would serve ( Chicago,Milwaukee and Madison) is a little over 4M people at a cost of over 800M (which is only an estimated cost for construction and we all know how rare it is for the government to do anything under budget) Amtrak already makes the Chicago to Milwaukee run as do busses. A better idea to me for a portion of this funding would be to increase fuel effeciency and lower emmisions of busses, that would make mass transit better for everyone since we do not need to build extra infrastructure.Efficient busses would lower operating costs for communities reducing ( hopefully or at least stabilzing) fares for riders.Plus ideas such as hybrid busses would be a product America could sell to other countries possibly turning those spent tax dollars into something profitable instead of another possible drain on our economy. I'm sure if you owned some of property that would be taken away by eminent domain you would feel differently about this project.
Andy Kristensen: Given that the only taxes you may have right now are those being taken out of a paycheck, you have no concept of what taxes really are. Check with your parents. Then write back to me about how light rail "won't cost anymore people in Wisconsin a dime."
What do you think those "stimulus" dollars are, Andy? They are taxpayer dollars - dollars that our country doesn't even have to spend! Money that future generations will be saddled with repaying for years to come. Taxes, Andy. And in every city - yes, every city! - where light rail has started up, the costs keep skyrocketing. Whatever is projected is minimal based on what the real costs end up being. Taxpayers subsidize the ridership. Do you understand how that works? Without taxpayer funding, tickets to ride light rail would be cost-prohibitive. No one would be able to afford a ride. Projections are that taxpayers (yes, from Wisconsin!) would be picking up the cost of $43 for EACH one way trip. Get it? Wisconsin taxpayers will be paying for this wasteful project for years, with no end in sight. Just so a handful of people can ride and read a book....
Makes no sense to me, and the Wisconsin voters should have some say in this poor decision! I only hope that Scott Walker gets elected as Governor in November and gives Obama back his Monopoly Money.
Carl Hicks: Good points. And look at how Amtrack has been losing billions over the years. Never a profit. That's our government at work! The same, or worse, situation will arise should light rail become a reality. Hopefully, our state will wise up and just say "no!" Let your elected representatives know your objections. Call or write them- often!
Amy, it is not right to make an assumption about Andy's notion of taxes. Ask his mom who is/was on the school board how taxes work and see if Andy understands.
Andy has a background in National and Wisconsin politics that is very respectful and you might want to ask him about it before you make assumptions on his notion of how this country's financial institutions work.
Dustin: Andy's comment that light rail "won't cost anymore Wisconsin people a dime" led me to believe that he has little knowledge of how taxes work. How the government doesn't produce any money. Government programs are paid for with taxpayer dollars. The Stimulus Bill is our money - that hasn't even been produced yet.
Maybe Andy should sit down with his mom and have the concept of "property taxes" explained to him, as well as Federal and State taxes. Then he should get back to me with how he believes that light rail "won't cost Wisconsin a dime." By accepting Stimulus dollars, it already has.
You know why I rarely comment on your blog? BEcause you talk down to me, as if I'm a little child. I need to "sit down with my mom?" are you kidding me? I probably know more about how the government runs its everyday operations better than you do. my grandpa was an advisor to hubert humphrey, my mom IS on the district schoolboard, and I have attended numerous government functions, such as the 2008 DNC, where I was able to eat breakfast with Governor Doyle, AND, on top of that, his wife was so impressed with my knowledge that she gave me her e-mail and we still talk sometimes. So yea, I must know nothing about government or taxes right? Wrong. Maybe if you read the statement correctly. The money for the rail is coming from otehr states with other money that's already been proportioned for it. yea, we'll hav eto pay taxes in the future to maintain it. duh. dustin said it well enough
O, and I forgot- my grandma is currently one of the top lawyers for Minnesota's government, and she specializes in the Treasury part of the government. So, I'm pretty sure I know what taxes are and how they work and the whole shebang
So Andy, if you have all these relatives so prominent in government and you know so much because you....are related to people who work in government?.. how can you make such an ignorant statement like: light rail "won't cost anymore Wisconsin people a dime?"
Care to answer, or just keep touting your own credentials?
And Andy, sorry, but you do sound like a little boy....
And the money for light rail is coming from other states is a wrong answer.....
The money for our high speed light rail (which isn't really high speed, nor light) is coming from Stimulus dollars. Now, Andy, I know you are a tax expert, cuz you have relatives who work in government. Yet, do you know what the "Stimulus dollars" are - and where they are coming from?
And in every state - every state, Andy!- where light rail has started up, the costs skyrocket from what was originallly thought. More money - in the millions - is needed. Where does the government go when more money is needed, Andy? Here's a hint: The government doesn't make money, we working taxpayers do. And once light rail is up and running, ridership isn't as great as thought - so tickets have to be subsidized even more by......taxpayers! So please explain how Wisconsin taxpayers won't have to pay a dime for this money drain being hoisted up us....
Andy...don't mean to embarrass you, but you may not want to listen to those relatives who tell you high speed rails won't cost us anything.
best to read up on some of the latest news.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703389004575033672230734364.html?mod=article-outset-box
There will be no vote and the rails will be built.
If you're really against this, contact the elected officials in Brookfield and Oconomowoc so that there is no stop and no more taxpayer dollars are wasted.
Are your property taxes going to build these stations in these communities? Tell them you don't want any part of this!
First, I hate to correct the premise of your article, but the proposed transit link between Milwaukee and Madison is not a light rail line. It cannot be used in direct comparison with many of the stated examples.
The main question I have is this: when did we vote for freeways to tear apart communities so others could commute from the city to the previous pristine land that is now their subdivision?
We had numerous successful, profitable, and private light rail and commuter rail systems in this country until the creation of our overgrown interstate highway system. I am not advocating against interstates, but please accept the fact that it is funded by tax dollars, many of which come from those who do not use it. It is inefficient waste of taxpayer funds and it is because it compete unfairly with other means of transit, that they cannot survive.
I however should not be arguing for efficiency as entering a conversation with those who are not willing to learn is a waste of my time and resources.
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